Planned well in advance, I think Bobby pretty much knew what he wanted to say and said it well. This interview is basically unedited except for where I personally went on too long in conversation. The fact Bobby never considered living there, his broader appreciation of the Tplex as an institution, as well as speaking to the reality of life in Detroit at that time are some of the reasons I chose to lead off with this interview.

I was born in 1984 in Grosse Pointe MI and grew up there on the first block outside of the city, (first block off Mack Ave). and in the 80’s and 90’s (and it still is), but especially back then, it was a very segregated place. When I was growing up there in the late 80’s and 90’s there was less of a disconnect because the far East side had not declined to the point that it would yet. I still had aunts, uncles and cousins still on the Detroit side and in fact me and my brother were the only cousins that grew up in the suburbs. The rest of them were raised in the city, until the mid 90’s when they all cleared out and completed the white flight exodus.

By that time the mid to late 90’s arguably, Detroit was in a state of crisis, and if you want to chart the arc of the city that may be the low point by some measures. It still had over a million people though and I remember being in high school and the 2000 census was coming up and the big question was: would Detroit have over a million people? Everyone knew the population was plummeting but didnt know how much it had fallen in 10 years. It ended up being short of a million and that was a big deal you know because of funding tied to population and now it’s like 650 K something. (Google search says 632 and shows a steady decline and for context Clevo is 367 and ATL is 495).

I read an article recently of signs of increasing black flight of youth leaving for work...

I’m sure. That’s where I was going with this; even since high school, which is 20 + years now, the city has lost a ⅓ of its population and most of that has been Black flight and if you think of it, that is pretty unbelievable. By the year 2000 everything the city has been through and the 40 years preceding that, to then just continue to lose population is staggering.

My Dad worked downtown and took the bus to work everyday and I started my schooling in the city and went to church in the city and basically to get anywhere you had to go through Detroit cause it was on the edge of our street, so I think I did have a different relationship than most suburban kids in metro Detroit, (to the city), growing up in such proximity and with a relationship to it and at that time. It was very taboo. In the late 90’s and 2000’s the general assumption among white people in the region was there is nothing there for us and nothing there for you, loaded with racist and classist assumptions and hyperbole about how dangerous it was etc., although it was a crazy time and there are elements of truth about how there was a breakdown of the social fabric for sure.

SO I first heard about Trumbull, cause I was a punk kid, around the year 2000 and some other punk kids I knew were going to hard core shows. It was referred to as the Trumbull Theatre. I thought, that sounds cool- what is that? I first went to Trumbullplex in 2001 when I was still in high school and I remember a friend of mine had started to meet people living there through FNB (Food Not Bombs) and some activism stuff. They started hanging out there and he brought me there. (Whos that?) His name was Dave but he went by Johnny and he became friends with JR , Sandman, Aren, Tall Paul etc., I think. (I think we called him Johnny David.) I can't remember what the first thing was, was it a show, was it a performance piece, but I remember I kept a journal in high school and years later I would destroy all the journals but I went through them and ripped two pages out cause they felt significant. One was the entry about the first time I went to Trumbullplex and the other was the entry about 9-11 when that happened.

My impression of Trumbullplex was I was floored by how cool it was. I remember writing a glowing review in whatever naive way I was probably interpreting it at the time and noting there was a case of PBR’s you could buy for $1. I was like 16 and no one asked me anything about it so I appreciated that for sure. (I forgot about that). I was in a punk band at the time called The Gibbons with some other friends in high school and we would start playing there shortly after that and played pretty regularly for a couple of years. We broke up in 2005 so I guess for the next 4 years we played there pretty regularly. At 17, in 2002 I had gone away to college at Eastern and in the summer I got an apartment in the Cass Corridor (CC) on Antoinette by Wayne State and lived there for a few months. I didn't really meet anyone and was just hanging out with my friends from the suburbs. The only people I met were like the older folks who lived in my building and were probably confused as to why I was there since I was 18 and was on my own for the first time you know.

I went back to Eastern for another year and came back to Detroit, moved in with my parents and started going to Wayne State. In 2005, that Summer I moved back to the North CC on Palmer street and shortly thereafter I really started to meet people at Trumbull. I was going to Wayne but Trumbullplex was really the institution that was anchoring my experience and where I would learn quite a bit in years to come.

I developed a crush on this girl I would see around town and she worked at the Steak Hut on Lafayette and was one of the young people who was working there for Gus, who owned it (and was the cook). On Sunday’s there would be music and it would be the social club of the young artists in town at the time and Amanda and Steve would play old timey music with banjo, homemade washtub bass, and if I remember correctly, fiddle. They were really good and it expanded to other people playing sometimes and it would be packed. It was just a greasy spoon diner and a place that doesn't even exist any more. It was so cheap, I mean you got breakfast for $2.

The Steak Hut wasn't about the food, it was definitely about the vibe and mingling. There was one of those old school photo boards and the cut out photos prints, film prints of the regulars and I remember eventually I would make that photo wall and that was a great source of pride you know. In Jan 2006 Colette and I started talking when we had a class together at Wayne State and then we started dating and she was more integrated into the radical scene in Detroit, including the Trumbullplex. She was sort of my gateway to getting to know folks actually living there, outside of playing occasional shows. I was known and my band was known from playing there but I didn't really know the people.

At the time it was S&P, Meg, Lou, Jess. Kit, Erica…Becky was around but prob moved on by then, this kid Bo I remember not living there long but was there. Pat was there shortly after, Eric was around, Mick and Sherry, Sandman, you, Kenny, Bec, Andrew and Kinga, Amelia, Matt, so many people I met then. I think my perspective, since I never lived there (and would later be involved, as we’ll get to, in tangible ways), if anything.. is one perspective I can bring is mine represents all the stakeholders since it was such a bigger thing than the people who were living there at the moment. It wasn't unlike a lot of collective housing, but the story is so much bigger than the people trying to coexist in (and between) the houses in harmony and figure out how to live their ideals. It was also about, if not more about, what having an institutional anchor around a community can mean and how many people it can bring into a network and just having that physical space can expand the community.

There were so many people in what I would consider to be the wider Trumbullplex community at that time and I named some, but it was also the Back Alley Bikes people, like Jack, Ben and Chelsea and it was also the Allied Media Projects (AMP). It was Jenny Lee and Mike Medows and Catherine Ferguson Academy (CFA).. It was Earthworks, all these nodes of radical Detroit back then. Detroit Summer, of course, and all the people involved with those things, cause they all felt welcome and part of the family or community at Trumbull and you know we would do events there and we would run into each other there. It was one of the things holding a very cohesive sense of the community in Detroit at that time, together. AND it depends on who you are asking but maybe at the center of the web. A lot of the things and people had relation to Trumbull that did not necessarily have relation to other things. So that’s my introduction.

It is a little surprising to me that you were playing there so much but did not develop friendships and relationships also living around there. Did you ever consider living there?

I can't say it ever seriously appealed to me. I remember when I was looking for apartments that first time around and ran into Dave K. and I knew Dave K from my band playing the Idle Kids Infoshop on Cass, (same period as when we were playing Trumbullplex), and he offered I could move into his house. I did consider that, which is Crow Manor obviously. I think I was scared and I was shy when I was a kid. I was bad at meeting people and I wasn’t meeting anyone at Eastern really and wasn't figuring out what was going on in Ypsi and A2 and like I said lived in Detroit in 2003 and didn't meet anyone. I remember going to Trumbull maybe once that summer and I didn't really know how to approach people and wasn’t that confident when I was 18 or so. I think I just wanted to live by myself and that felt more safe to me. Eventually I started having roommates when I moved to Woodbridge and lived with people for a long time throughout those inner city neighborhoods in Detroit: SouthWest, Corktown, Woodbridge, the Corridor. Those first apartments were little studios and there was something intimidating about moving into the punk house that I wasn't ready for. I was always a little more comfortable having a little distance from it.

Is that how you saw it as a punk house?

I didn't see it as just a punk house and I dont think a punk house is a derogatory term and use it with affection. But Trumbull was a punk house, it was an elevated, organized, institutionalized punk house with a legit venue attached that was actually a compound and it was the greatest punk house in America that I had seen and I had seen a lot of them, but essentially that is what it was. You know, semantics, you could call it a commune or anarchist housing collective and all these things that are all true but at the end of the day I think it is very fair to call it a punk house and it was the main punk house in Detroit.

Did you ever get into any activism through that or anything?

I never really self identified as an activist. Through the Trumbull community I met Jenny Lee and lived with Rachel Parsons (in 2006) who was working on Critical Moment and she was one of the OG people on the Allied Media Conference (AMC) organizing committee to bring the AMC to Detroit from Bowling Green and I think it was 2006 or 7 when they did that. I was volunteering at the first AMC at WSU in Detroit, so I just started to peripherally be a part of that community and would volunteer at the conference for a number of years and in 2011 AMP would hire me as a teaching artist for their Detroit Future Schools programs that they were launching. They had got a 2 million dollar stimulus grant from the big stimulus package Obama had passed in response to the 2008 crisis that he had inherited and they developed a bunch of programming because they had got this huge grant and one of those was imbedding teaching artists in classrooms throughout Detroit. I got hired to do that and would work for DFS for a few years and eventually would be on the board. It was eventually renamed People In Education. So that was kinda the closest I was part of the activist world and network, volunteering and working for AMP, but outside of showing up at protests I wasn't actually doing organizing work.

I remember some of the protests at the time and this was a little later, like when they closed CFA (Catherine Ferguson Academy) in a wave of school closings, which was a big thing at the time. I was going to Wayne State and was doing my student teaching at Murray Wright High School, right by Tplex and the public high school for the neighborhood at that time. I was living in Woodbridge at Canfield and Avery and Murray Wright was on the chopping block while I was teaching there, up until the closing basically. They were closing schools left and right and charters were becoming more prominent and obviously the district itself was in huge financial trouble and there's a whole political side of that but I think it is an important contextual piece.

When I moved downtown in 2003 and the community that existed there, even though it wasn't until 2006 when I began to tap into it, it was so different than it is now. The context was so different and the narrative of what Detroit was and what it had to offer or really what it didn't have to offer, sort of one of poverty and violence and racial tension was how people outside of the city thought of it and that was really it you know.

It was early 2007 or so that we saw the early signs of that narrative changing. No one was talking about gentrification back then to my memory cause it seemed like such a far fetched thing. The narrative seemed so far away from where it needed to be to court the kind of investment or in migration of white professional people that wasn't really on our radar; I don't remember anyone ever really talking about it. Slowly but surely, or quickly in the scheme of things, 2007,8, 9, 10 the narrative was shifting and nationally there was a lot of attention on Detroit and a lot of the people I knew were really at the center of that, including Trumbullplex.

I remember Trumbullplex being approached by MTV, when I was part of the theatre collective, about doing a reality show there and talking about it at a meeting and turning it down. Patrick Crouch was sort of becoming a media star in a funny way for his work at Earthworks, he was in Oprah magazine and was living at Trumbull for some of this time, and Greg Willer (a Tplex founder) of Brother Nature Farm was in a lot of media. There were those things that were highlighting radical Detroit, funny enough, that were the first kind of things that were signaling to some people that things are changing and maybe unintentionally ushering in the changes, not all for the worse, but certainly a lot of it not for the better.

Do you remember thinking about the reality that most of the people going to and living at Trumbull were white and this was in a majority Black city?

Of course that was always a dynamic.

I guess before we get to that let’s talk about PT 2.

In 2007 I believe a bunch of people who lived at the house and a bunch of community members who used to live there and one or two of us who did not, felt the theatre was being underutilized and that the people at the house had other priorities, whether it was tending to the house itself, farming or whatever other things that they were involved in. The space was not getting used and no one was really booking a lot of events there. We decided to form a separate collective to manage the theatre itself and people who lived there were welcome to sit in on it but it was also like I said ex plex and a few of us who never lived there. That was my primary way I was useful to the community. I knew a lot of musicians from DIY punk touring and had a lot of relationships with the types of artists that would play Trumbull and did play Trumbull, so I could and I did get involved that way. I was involved with that til probably 2011 (with you) and my general recollection of that was that it was successful at utilizing the theatre a lot more and bringing a whole new wave of events, diversity of events, energy and also just fixing up the theatre. I remember the theatre looked quite different by the time I resigned or whatever in 2011. To your questions before...

Back then, especially you know, everyone living in Detroit by choice, whether you were white or not and you had a certain amount of privilege and were choosing to live in Detroit you had a consciousness about that cause it would have been so unappealing to someone without that consciousness cause there were no amenities. You did have to deal with crime and I don't know a single person who didn't have experience with that first hand. I have a lot of stories about that and throughout my life from my uncle being murdered in Clark Park when I was a little kid to you know my cars getting stolen and set on fire, assaulted on the street, cars getting broken into, people getting assaulted randomly. Every Spring the street violence would tick up and someone would get held up by kids with sawed off shotguns or someone would get hospitalized with a beating walking home at night, this was just part of it and it didn't define it but it was in the back of everyone's mind all the time. It wasn’t a conventionally desirable place to be at that time and the people who chose to be there brought a consciousness with them, a racial consciousness and anti capitalist consciousness and that was really the glue that held that community together, it was political. It wasn’t aesthetic or taste, people were bringing different backgrounds or musical tastes but the thread through it all was a certain radical political consciousness. At that time a probably 85% Black city and the Trumbull community was predominantly white, so if you were me and living in a predominantly Black city these are things that you felt and talked about all the time. Race was a lense from which your experience was viewed. Like I was saying before, people were not talking about being gentrifiers because at that time we didn't really see investment and see capital following us. I think later you could sort of draw a line from Back Alley Bikes or the Urban Farming movement to gentrification and see how it sort of planted the seeds that allowed for investment to follow years later. I'm trying to remember what exactly the dialogue was if it wasn't about trying to not be a gentrifier. I think it was still about trying to be a conscious neighbor and community member, aware of your privilege and whiteness and that was sort of the baseline level.

With the theatre and specifically with Trumbull like I said, it was a punkhouse and punk is predominantly a white scene or cultural phenomenon, of course not exclusively and of course there have been struggles for inclusion and voices for inclusion in the whole history of punk and that is part of the history, but the reality of punk is in the US it is a thing predominantly white kids gravitate towards. So there was this element of it’s not going to be anything else than what it is, you know. Yes, it's an 85% Black city but it's a punk house and that's who is living there and that is who it is attracting and having punk shows so people who are into that is who it will be attracting.

I remember on the theatre collective, and I would say I experienced very little drama or tension with my whole involvement with the Trumbullplex project and to the extent that I can remember anything, it was not drama but there certainly was tension on the theatre collective with how to address issues of inclusion and make the space more welcoming and appealing to folks in the neighborhood. There were a lot of people who wanted the same thing but had different ideas about how to go about it. I remember discussions around wanting to do more hip hop nights and stuff like that and kind of doing things explicitly for the kids in the neighborhood and I don't think that was a bad thing and it was happening sometimes but I do think the push back against that was myself and other people who felt like we shouldn't be tokenizing and we shouldn't be doing stuff that is not authentic to us just so we can say that the space has representation. We shouldn't stop doing what we do as a punk space. I felt it was a valuable thing and some people weren't interested in doing that so much any more and wanted to turn it into more of a localized community space. I think that felt like it was more about their own reckoning with white guilt or their privilege. My thinking at the time was 20 years old punks were not really equipped to be running a community space for the neighborhood.

Yes, and I think this is an important conversation. And looking back on this issue for the project etc we did not have the language and the analysis, but I think in our gut knew we had something special (although super flawed) and was a resource to try and share with those who may have less access. We had cheap housing and we were creating community and it should be more inclusive for the sheer fact that everyone around us were people of color for the most part, even with the proximity to campus. I don't think even as anarchists we were thinking about power and privilege in ways that we could talk to our neighbors about so easily (so here I am talking about organizing I would say) and also at a certain level because there were Black people and POC involved at Tplex and people with marginalized identities, like it was a queer friendly place so that power dynamic of the white cis gendered men… there was a lot of problems around that. For example you may not have been aware from not living there but there always seemed to be a tension between the two houses and I think in looking back that is where a lot of that came from. The politics of identity was an issue.

I was aware of the Corner House as pretty checked out of the theatre collective and doing their own thing. I was friendly with those people but barely knew them really. I was only engaging with the main house and people on the collective. So that is not what I was even talking about but I don't want to make it sound like there wasn't a tremendous amount of diversity of things that went on in the theatre and it wasn't all white dudes playing in punk bands. I saw belly dancing there, Grace Lee Boggs spoke, theatre troupes, hip hop, poetry, wakes, everything happened there, wedding parties and every kind of event…dance parties with dj’s. I felt there was a diversity of events and my thinking at the time is this is a freak scene and the people who gravitate towards this should feel welcome here. I didn't get the sense that a lot of the neighborhood were banging down the door to do events or participate in events there and to me the impulse we need to include the neighborhood 50% of the time or whatever, (I don't know if people were advocating for hard numbers) but it was always a push in that direction and my take away was “this is about you more than the neighborhood”. I wasn't not supportive, like I said I worked at the school in the neighborhood and unlike those people I had a relationship and actually knew a lot of the teenagers in the neighborhood and they thought I was a funny cat. I had a weird neck beard, rode my bike to work and didn't have a tv so they thought I was Amish!

Again, I think what I am talking about was a lot of young idealistic 19 year old people, who felt like this is the way things should be (and they weren't wrong) but the way I perceived the reality of the neighborhood was not necessarily the way they perceived the reality of the neighborhood. I was thinking that anyone who is kinda a freak and interested in the kind of art and programming going on will gravitate towards it and we should make an effort to welcome all those people but I don't think we should be going door to door to bring the neighborhood in so we can feel good about ourselves. That always rubbed me the wrong way.

I think that is a super valid analysis of the situation, but what I was just trying to get at was I don't think we had the language for being intentional and answering the question of “what are we trying to do here” and in hindsight it provided the opportunity to meet like minded people and it was an access point for lots of different things for activism and culture but if you were rooted more in the anarchist vision for creating change than the DIY culture that were perhaps conflated to some extent, though not mutually exclusive, we needed to be creating relationships with people who were different than us so that we could perhaps develop accountability and then collaborate. Trumbull did a good job in some ways of being supportive of projects that were led by the people who were most affected by the conditions of the city at the time, like by police violence or the schools but I think the step we missed when organizing events supposedly for the community (I mean Black neighbors probably) we should have asked or offered more people to use the space, like ‘if you have a need to do something here's what we can offer’. It could have been a valuable resource to others also, in theory. Though at times, especially when I lived there, it wasn't actually a space we wanted to be bringing people into, since it was pretty rough with major leaks etc Like I don’t want to invite people into a fucked up space when maybe they are already dealing with the effects of oppression, you know it wasn’t necessarily a nice place for them to turn to. I guess I am saying it may have been a missed opportunity for the moment, if we could have made it more presentable (and we did later). So as much as I think we did a lot of good stuff I wish from that support work we would have extended the invitation and made the space to host those groups of people more.

I agree that it was a missed opportunity and more could have been done but I also think it is not a fair or accurate critique if someone levied it that it was one type of event and one type of person, in my time.

At times it was though, and some people are actually critiquing it with those assumptions based on their experience, that it was hardcore shows with straight white dudes and for sure they missed a lot with different cohorts and time periods and all...

I don't want to give the impression that I was not for community engagement. We did try and do that and there was a lot of variety of events proposed by all sorts of people and we had so many proposals and submissions; we did a haunted house for the neighborhood. We did every type of event I could imagine.

Is that how you recall it as mostly about the neighborhood vs the city?

Yea, and you know it is a big city. (In some ways though it is kinda more like a small town). Yea, but Trumbullplex wasn't concerned with what was going on in the Osborne neighborhood or something like that. I think the extent to which it was about the neighborhood or at least that part of town I just felt like yes we could be doing more but we are doing a good job and we are trying to improve. This is not some sort of crisis and this space has some type of identity and that identity is ok, its ok to have a punk anarchist identity and that is not something that needs to be destroyed or transformed and we can do all types of events and we do and it is ok to just be who we are and who we are is mostly white people, mostly from the suburbs or out of state and of course not exclusively and that is the sensibility we are bringing. Also, we are trying to do this space and provide a space for the culture we are a part of and that we want to see flourish. And we are also trying to build relationships with all types of people in that part of inner city Detroit and all types of radicals and other groups of art minded folks.

I remember having meetings with other DIY spaces in Detroit after a lot of them had been raided.. remember when the DIY raids were going on? (yea I remember the CAID being raided and it being fucked up). Yea we were meeting with all those spaces, because we had relationships with CAID, Bohemian Home and Scrummage and they were places with different identities but it is a big city and there should be room for all that. Some people were too critical and trying to eviscerate where they came from and I never felt that way.

Do you remember alcohol, drugs and partying being problematic in our space?

Drinking was a big part of the culture, never drugs outside of weed and occasional mushrooms or something, even psychedelics I don't remember a lot of that going on. Yea, drinking was probably abused by some people or getting too drunk. Did someone die leaving there once in a car accident? She drove off a pier down river into the river or something? There was some connection to Trumbull, but may or may not have been leaving there but had been there before.

Like I said, one of things that drew me to the space when I was 16 the first time I was there was being offered the opportunity to buy a beer for a buck. Beer and liquor were such a part of the culture, it was always there and we would sell it a lot of the time for bigger events. Everyone was constantly going back and forth to the liquor store up the street on Trumbull. There was not much discussion or consciousness on sobriety as a concept and lifestyle. Obviously, “straight edge” was more the thing or language that punks would likely use. Sobriety is likely more of a modern term. I don't think it was a huge problem, for some people and for some of the shows it probably was, like some of the hard core shows, people were getting out of control and doing disrespectful things to others, themselves or the house itself, but the shows that I tended to book, go to or be involved with there was rarely any sort of incident. I would hear stuff about at the hard core shows. I sound like such a square.

I remember you getting in a confrontation one time with someone about doing coke in the theatre (That was Timmy and I kinda got into a lot of confrontations. Another was with the metal punks. I remember after what was a really long night and allowing for the fun to go on for some time but knowing it wasn't going to be indefinitely and just throw up my hands (we did have shut off times often) and I will just say by the end of the night it became unpleasant.)

I think you would put on a wider array of events and take some risks and you would have to deal with some bullshit sometime.

I will say on the alcohol and drug thing, drugs were not encouraged outside of weed, it never would have been acceptable while I was there to be doing coke or shooting up but in defense of drinking I think at that time at a lot of DIY spaces you couldn't drink and that was enforced.

There are benefits to that, but to the psychology of young people there was something about you could do that at Trumbull and that made it feel like an authentic place of freedom and anything could happen in a positive way. Artistically, socially and there were no… sober spaces though they have all sorts of benefits to them, there is something about a space like that which has a parental aspect, like placing constraints on possibility and fun. Obviously that is not true but to a young person's psyche there was a lot to that and despite the negative things that alcohol contributed to it probably was also something that made it a more exciting place to be and feel more alive.

[Because we did do so many different things it was entirely possible people could go to the space who didn't want that, and events were sometimes operating as silos as Sicily talks about in her interview, and may not have even been aware that drinking was such a big deal at other shows.]

Yea there wasn't a consistent culture…

There was cohesion in some ways but

You would be cleaning up after some of the shows and you were like wow there are so few bottles and cans and other shows were like, ‘we’re rich!’

There was always a difference too in events that were more public and events that were more of the community, of course you worried more at the more public events of someone getting out of control but there were a lot of events that were the people living down and around there and everyone knew each other and there were parties.

I mean we were certainly taking some risks with underage drinking and if it was going to be a bigger event that we could or would likely attract the police.

Absolutely, it's insane for me to think back on it, there were no guard rails, no rules, no ID checking...

True to an extent but there was an awareness that we were allowing this but not facilitating this, I mean there was usually a good amount of talk before having a bar, like at the 20th anniversary show or something, and trying to make some money.

Yea usually it was BYO.

But sometimes we did buy some 30- packs and doubled our money.

Or a keg or two, there were nights we had kegs. (I think that was usually because they were still around from a party or brought to us because there was still a lot left over from the night before somewhere).

I think if we would have had, like at Gilman, no this, no that, no no no, I think it may have actually created more resentment towards the politics and our efforts to be a welcoming community, you did not have to conform to our standards as much.

Do you think that is the core of it all, belonging and finding community?

I do. I think it is the intersection of radical politics and belonging. I think people had to have a radical perspective to be attracted to that space. And that was sort of a precondition for moving in or being welcomed. At least when I was there you didn't have to fit into a particular box so it wasn’t super prescriptive. Someone was like “I am a Trotskyist” and no one gave that much a shit about political labels. There was not that political labeling.

And I think we need that too cause it is easy to just feel a lot of tension of all sorts of realities you know and to have a space to not have to be that uptight or superficial and it’s just about the party.

I appreciated that cause I had gotten roped into one of those communist groups when I was in college and all of that reading Marx and Lenin and drawing distinctions of different schools of left wing thought, that didn't resonate with me. I was more “oh hey you're into this thing and I'm into this thing and here's where we overlap and let's be friends, let's do events together, let's have a party”, whatever. Let's create a world.

I was not that interested in the study of leftist thinkers and I was more interested in how to live my ideals in the world around me at that time. And I think that is what most of the people involved in Trumbullplex at that time were also looking for. I think there were different ways people could plug in. It wasn’t all about the theatre, some people were about homesteading, essentially that's what it was and some people were about farming and gardening and some people were about biking and transportation and some people were about activist politics and organizing. There were a lot of different ways to express that and ultimately it wasn't a super prescriptive environment, in my experience. We were trying to find common ground on good faith and it was a welcoming and healthy community generally.

Are you surprised it has lasted 30 years?

Absolutely, cause how many examples in this country do we have a DIY space, a punk house lasting that long and having such cohesion. And I think it is a testament to the people who founded it that they built something that was bigger than themselves and not a cult of personality, and put in the structure to ensure its longevity and built a strong enough identity and culture that it would continue to attract like minded people who could carry the torch.

Do you think a lot of it is just because of the conditions in Detroit that it lasted?

Yea probably that helped, but I think there were other cities that were equally or had similar situations at that time that it could have existed, but it didn't. It could have been in St Louis, it could have been in Cleveland, but it wasn't.

Do you think to some extent it should be replicated in today's current political moment?

I'm sure it would be useful and that it should be replicated but in the loosest sense. I think a mistake when people start spaces too often they are thinking about what they want and they are thinking about themselves and they build it around themselves and a small group of people and they are not thinking about after they move on cause you know why would they care. That's the brilliance of Trumbullplex really is it's bigger than anyone involved, any personalities and why wouldn't we want things to endure cause they are obviously useful to people, community spaces, event spaces, anchor points for the community. And as so much of our lives have migrated to online to have physical spaces are more important than ever, especially non commercial ones. I mean do I think you need to buy up two old Victorian houses in a disinvested neighborhood and build a theatre attached to one and have it be a punk anarcho space that does all types of events, absolutely not, but in the loosest sense if there are ways to think about when you are no longer involved and set up a structure to sustain itself why wouldn't you do that. There is definitely something to take from that legacy and history.

I wanted to say something on that mission statement and such. I think with institutions part of the reason one is successful or at least has longevity and is successful in that way is not just the structure and internal mechanisms, how it's constructed and designed, but it is also identity and trust. People talk about trust in institutions these days on the grandest scale with the American government, court system, media or whatever and how we have a crisis in trust of the institutions, so I think what speaks to the success of a lot of institutions is sorta buy in from people outside of the institution and seeing what one is and its identity, which is a sort of feedback loop within the institution itself. I think that Trumbull having a national, and internationally known identity was part of what helped it continue to attract people who were interested or sympathetic to the aims of the project and wanted to participate in keeping the project going and I think that has as much to do with the longevity as the design. So in that sense the theatre and the public facing part of the institution can’t be underestimated as its importance to its longevity, as opposed to something to the mission which is more of an internal and private memo. I just think the project may not have been that concerned with the theatre but the project owes a lot to the theatre and I don't see it surviving without the theatre. I don't see it surviving 3 decades without a public facing way to fundraise, to attract people to be engaged both through living there and being part of the wider community. I think that is a really important point.

I think it is a very important perspective but also one of many. I think there could have been many alternate realities conceived where it did survive without the theatre used as it has been and the actual physical spaces are in better shape. I go on to argue that the theatre is sexy and what attracted people and was useful and so fun, but over time it overtook the foundational vision that was likely to be as useful- if it had not fallen by the wayside so often.

Any significant takeaways, what you learned specifically from Trumbullplex that got you to where you are now?

Trumbull was my entry way into a community bound by purpose in the real world as a young adult. It was the first taste I had of meeting people and absorbing what was possible based on what other people were doing. I never grew up thinking about the types of things that people were doing that were a part of that community and it was so mind expanding and the take away was almost anything is possible, especially when there are people with shared vision cooperating, loving each other and working together. My reflection on that time was it was a beautiful time and it was a great time to be in Detroit. It was a time of a lot of energy and excitement and we thought we were with a bunch of other people across the city building an alternative, building a post-capitalist model for an American city. This was kind of influenced by Grace Lee Boggs you know, she was the intellectual mother of that whole extended network in Detroit. This ties back to feeling no one was talking about gentrification because we thought capital had ceded Detroit, and we thought ‘ok they've completely left and now it's up to our visions for building some alternative’. That was really the feeling on the ground at that time and it sounds naive and crazy now but that was really how people talked. Not just the punks at Trumbullplex but very experienced old school Detroit activists which was formative for me.

I have always valued community since and really valued being part of one and bringing what I can to the table and that exchange and that sense of possibility that you can lead with your values and there are ways to fight against the forces you are swimming in by identifying what your values are and how you can live them out better. It’s not going to be perfect obviously, in the world we are living in now. It was a great experience for me and I feel very lucky to have been a part of that time and feel very grateful to all the people I have met and experiences I had.

In closing a lot of critiques could be and were levied against Trumbullplex but show me a space or institution that is not going to fail in some way and is beyond critique. There are always these dynamics at play of people who feel on the outside of something or slighted by something or it's not what they would want or whatever and of course it was imperfect but also a really important thing and vital to the fabric of the core of Detroit at that time.

...talking about a time when there was division between the two houses when she was there, before we officially got underway w/ the interview… Carmen described the corner house as the “Palace of gloom and doom. Aggro energy drunk guys who lived there vibe and I didnt go in there.”

Were you able to just focus on life at “the big house” with everyone or was it always a thing to have to negotiate, that tension between the houses?

Both. I'm generalizing and some Corner House folks would come to meetings, some wouldn't, but regardless whether they did or didn't they had opinions on what and how things should be done. Redbeard just wasn't part of the collective. Towards the end I was able to bridge the gap personally and some of that was being a theatre collective member vs a house member. Some of that for me was I generally wanted to have a relationship with those people next door and understand what is it about this energy and what is it about this division. When Jack moved next door he brought a lighter energy and I was welcomed there more. Also, at that time, part of me was more into ‘I'm going next door to party since smoking and drinking was common there. When I was no longer a house member and for a time I was using the downstairs space (the old kitchen) as an apothecary space, who was living there had changed a little, like Eric and Mikey were there. That felt more welcoming. That was a different phase of interactions with that house at that point.

Was that pretty successful or useful, the apothecary space?

Trumbullplex was really pivotal, the place and the people I met there, for me starting my own herbalism practice. I was just learning and opening my eyes and going ‘oh wait there's these plants growing here and I can use these for something and I can make some medicine’. At that point I had some gardening knowledge and experience.. My sisters and I did some gardening with my grandmother at our house in South West (Detroit). I also learned about quite a few herbs from my grandma that we used for cooking or as common culturally traditional remedies used in Guatemala (where she is from). It became more about the use of medicinal plants that I learned from J. Rae since he had just come back from midwifery school at the time. He would say ‘hey here's some stinging nettles and mugwort, let's make some tinctures!” We went to Forest Liquor and bought some Vodka and used the blender and made these tinctures. I was so excited and hadn't realized this was something I could do and that turned into me going to Rhode Island for a couple of months to study herbalism at Farmacy Herbs.

When I came back from Farmacy I realized so much of my connection to herbs and foraging in Detroit was in that area, cause that is where I lived before I moved. I still had that connection to Tplex through the theatre (and still had a key to the big house somehow). So, there was that space in the corner house that was in really rough shape, (that no one was using), on the first floor and all the way back to the right. I cleaned up that room with some help and set out some of my herbs and tinctures. There was an old bike wheel with the spokes and hooks that someone had probably used as a way to hang pots and pans on, or whatever, that I used as a drying rack and I just used it as my own little room and probably paid a little rent or something, or made a donation to “the space”. I was living at home with my Mom at the time and had some extra money too, so I used that space for about a year and half until I moved to California for grad school and at the time KP and maybe Patience were using that space somehow, maybe a bedroom, but I am not sure. Also Liz was semi using it as an apothecary in a way. I remember going over to visit when I was home and Liz had started a tincture and had some tinctures that I had left behind and were still using it that way for a little bit. I don't know if I would say it was “successful” but it was my own little refuge to have a space to work out of for a couple of years that wasn’t just like my Moms house and still stay connected to the Trumbullplex.

Aside from J. were you aware of other past Tplex people who had a similar interest in herbs, like Angel comes to mind? And the herb spiral that was built…

I never met Angel, but I saw her at an herb fair once, at a Midwest Herbalism Conference but I was too shy to say hi. I did garden when I lived there and used the herb spiral when it was being used for herbs and not totally overgrown. I learned a lot from just going to the Canteen and talking to Sherry about the herbs she had and a lot of what I learned was just through gardening and from friends who had gardening experience. Steve knew how to ID some basic things.

Do you think it pulled you into other Detroit gardening events or other people involved in that stuff?

Not necessarily through Tplex, I remember being aware of Keep Growing Detroit and was a member of the garden resource program at Tplex. I don't think at the time I had other like minded people around herbalism and had a community around that outside of the Trumbull.

What were you up to prior to moving in?

I was a student at WSU and grew up in Detroit but wanted to live not at home and moved into the Cass Corridor into an apartment with people I had met. The first year at WSU I lived in the dorms cause I had scholarship money and the dorms were new and I think they were trying to get people in the door. I lived in the new dorms, which was a strange experience, but that's where I met Sicily who knew Megan (who was part of Trumbullplex at the time) and Sicily was going to the potlucks at the time. She said “you should come to the Trumbullplex”, while at the time I thought it was a very intimidating place. I had gone to some shows only and felt not cool enough to go into the Tplex. I thought these people are intimidating and I remember hearing the name before, from going to Idle Kids. I mostly went to Idle KIds for shows and zines and I bought my first vinyl record ever there and would go to events there. I also went to Detroit Summer events at the CCNDC (Cass Community Neighborhood Development Center) space. I had heard of the name (Trumbullplex), but I had never stepped foot in there. I came to Trumbull through Sicily and Idle kids.

Cool! I didn't know that cause I figured you having grown up in SW and it (Tplex) had been around already for quite a few years, you probably had more history with it.

Not at all.

And you know recently I have been seeing a ton of Idle Kids flyers for shows and events I had no idea about, and even though Dave and I were good friends, I realized how little I actually went there. I was pretty involved with Detroit Summer and 2 other projects at the time I was doing for sure, but still surprising.

Another way I got involved was I had met Collette at WSU at a feminist group I was part of and she was moving out of a house over by 4th street, maybe 2005 and ended up meeting Sarah (“sidewalk”) and I think Rachel Parsons and Melissa Shelton were living there and Jaimie? I took over Colletes room and Sarah had been a previous Trumbullplex resident and pretty sure I met other Tplex people from the feminist group, maybe Kenny was a WSU student and they maybe knew some of my friends from that group. When I was moving out from that place with Sarah and later Caitlin Brown and had been going to shows and potlucks, I had met Clara through Labor Notes, where I was interning. Clara had interned there also and was a part of an anti sweatshop group, her and Sicily were a part of it and Clara was moving into Trumbull. She was like ‘there's a spot open here you should come and interview’, she got me a foot in the door, as I remember it.

Do you remember your interview? And were you given then, or ever the mission statement or had seen it prior?

I think I did see the mission statement cause I think that group of people who moved in at the time were a lot more organized maybe and had just moved from U of M A2, as student organizers and valued things like mission statements and understood the purpose of them. I do remember my interview and I'm pretty sure I was given something to look at but I don't remember questions or anything.

Do you think you got a review?

I do think I got a review.

For some it seems after talking with people they were just too overwhelmed to follow through with timely reviews...

And we did have pretty regular meetings. I think they were pretty useful too. They would stay on track and were organized. There was this tension between creating meetings (in an anarchist collective context) and how to facilitate meetings, so it felt equitable and in line with those anarchist principles, but also structured and organized. That dance between being efficient with time and being productive existed, but also people would be late or not show up so we had to deal with those issues that would just happen. It wasn't like people didn't care or were too high or drunk and probably there was some of that but we got things done and talked about a lot. I think there was a palpable tension that no one talked about. How do we create a container or structure that doesnt feel hierarchical, oppressive, annoying or whatever? Just doesn't feel repulsive in some way. At least I kinda sensed that.

I confirm similar thoughts regarding meetings…and talk about how maybe I personally at least tried to relax a little bit around issues like time etc so people who had struggles with focus and even trauma from the school system, could even be a part of meetings, which at the time I don't think I had initially considered too much as to why meetings were an issue for some folks.

A question regarding if the guidelines created for conflict resolution were used… and I go into how we did lean into that … etc.

No.

Something I did personally like to do, was that I read every binder and looked through the photo albums. I wanted to know about the history of Trumbullplex when I moved there and as a collective member -how did people do things before? And what has already been done? I liked looking at print resources and was so grateful that in the filing cabs in one or both of the living rooms (during a time when everything was starting to become digitized), that those materials had been kept around. I mean we had a computer there and cell phones but not everyone had smartphones yet and digital files were not as easy to create as they are now. There was still a reliance on paper and I remember reading things maybe something about conflict resolution but I don't think we used it and personally coming out of student organizing and at some point being a card carrying member of the IWW (International Workers of the World) when I was a college student I was really excited about learning about all this shit. I remember “Rusties Rules of Order” and meeting facilitation and what consensus means, so I had some structure, but I found sometimes in students organizing that structure does not work for everybody and at Trumbullplex when I lived there, there was less of that formal meeting structure and process.

There wasn't really a formal accountability process either if there was tension with a collective member- more ‘ ok come to meetings and just talk’, or ‘who’s going to reach out to this person and ‘this person hasn't paid share in like 6 months we need to confront them at a meeting’, it was more like that.

Your family had a history of activism and politics…were you exposed to the concepts or anything to do with anarchism beforehand?

I don't think my parents had a certain political identification or approach, and my Mom and Grandmother knew a lot about communism and they both traveled to Cuba. My Mom traveled to Korea for a world communist youth convention (it was just one convention) when she was probably a little bit younger than me. I was born then so she was in her early 30’s. I don't think she said ‘I am Communist’ but valued a lot of those ideas and I know my Dad talked favorably about the Green Party, but I don't think I had ever heard of anarchism. It just made a lot of sense to me when I started learning. However, I did already, inherently have a political foundation from my parents and their friends. My parents met when my dad was involved in labor organizing work and my mom and grandmother ran a solidarity committee here in Detroit that sent mutual aid to indigenous communities in Guatemala during a Mayan genocide in the 80’s. Quite a few of their friends remember me as a baby napping under a merch table from those days. So, although I wasn’t raised with explicit awareness of anarchism, I feel I had a good understanding of it and it made sense to me as I began to be involved at Trumbullplex.

Did you identify as an anarchist or did you just like learning from some of the readings or ideas…at Trumbull or now, whatever?

…I think I have a hard time seeing labels as very fixed, like with most everything in life. I think that is a strength I have and tend to see a lot more nuance in things and a lot more venn diagrams than one label or thing. And there are some things that are just straight up this is or that or hard core anarchism or Marxism. There are just so many branches or expressions of things that I think it's hard for me to say… but maybe in my early to mid 20’s I would have said ‘Yes I am an anarchist’ but now there is more nuance than that. I think if you were to ask me politically in a country or in a nation state how things should be run I would say Socialism, or even democratic socialism. However, I am also weary of “nation states,” and I believe the idea of “borders” should be discarded so that everyone has the right to migrate safely.

I have no expectation that in my lifetime there would even be an anti authoritarian structure to a whole country, What I mean to say here is that — I don’t expect to see an anarchist revolution in my lifetime in which there is a complete transformation of current political power structures on a large scale of leadership or governance level. That's just not how I think of it and maybe that's not even what anarchism is about.

The way I interpret it is that a lot of my philosophy and values are anarchistic while I also hold true politically I dont 100% identify as an anarchist because of those nuances, and where I am within this place and time in the world, the government structures and society. Anarchism in practice is a lot easier to do, in a smaller intentional community or in relationships in the way you approach your interactions with people and in communication and how you choose to approach the world and how you are relating to people. I don't know I would say 100% I am and maybe if I were to share this with someone who was an anarchist they would say ‘No you are not’ but I dont think its my place to say this person is or isn't this or that, so I can't really say either way cause of how I look at things.

Were there other takeaways, things you learned or accomplishments particularly that got you here or still carry? Or even the relationships from the Trumbullplex days… are they still important ones? (Further explanation… since it's a big question re the impact Tplex had on her.)

I have been thinking for a number of years a lot about the impact Tplex had on me. There was a period of time when I wasn't really thinking about that, because I was trying to do all these other things in my life and in the last couple of years I have been like ‘wow a lot of the things I have in terms of what I value, like the knowledge I have, comes from that time in my life and aside from my herbalism work and gardening knowledge there’s just so much. I mean even just how to put up drywall and random home repair things and understanding how to care for an old house.

Which is super crucial. I talk about the new collective and how the just prior cohort were frustrated about not having ever faced owning a house etc. The point was that sharing with them my perspective that “you will not likely even be here for all that long, that's how it goes, but you can learn things and get perspectives, so if you were to own a house some day on how to do that! and that is very valuable and worth your time and commitment even if the whole of it is not perfect …”

And that is a particularly very old house. I learned how to start a woodstove fire or bonfire and what I would consider life skills. I also learned that even if you are in a space that is considered radical or anarchist or whatever label you want to use and you assume people are coming in with the same understanding that is not necessarily the case. I still very much saw a division of labor and there was a gendering of labor and value to it. My thing was I can excel at washing the dishes, sweeping the floor and making sure shit isn't dusty and somewhat tidy and that is where I do well, making sure recycling is taken out and all this very thankless type of stuff, meanwhile somebody would execute on a project that I had an idea for like laying down some bricks where there was a patch of dirt between the front porch and the driveway. I don’t want to name names but a cis-male identifying collective mate actually did it with someone else really quickly on a summers day and everyone was applauding him and saying how great that looks, good idea! I was like ‘hey that was my idea and I just don't have the skills to do this’ and if someone had just said ‘do you want to do this with me!’ While that stuff got praised the basic mundane things were thankless and it made me feel like I wasn't contributing to the collective cause I wasn't fixing the boiler or wasn't doing x, y and z, which are valuable stuff and in some way also thankless work. I learned that you can't assume in a space where people supposedly share a philosophy or an approach, people are on the same page about different things related to identity and the way we have internalized the outside world and are bringing that into this project. That was a huge learning lesson for me.

Was that so disappointing that it made you more wary of how you saw activism?

Oh yea and I already had come out of student organizing/activism work where you would also see those dynamics at play. A Lot of mansplaining and guys taking up space was somewhat similar to what I saw at Tplex too. Aside from that, which is important to share, Trumbull also expanded my people skills, and I had a lot of people skills because my Mom had her own work from home office when I was growing up. We always had people in the door who were her clients, as an attorney. I was used to being in this house where it wasn't always private, there was always a public private dynamic going on which was what was going on at Trumbullplex and I had already brought that skill into TPlex living. I also built on it there in a lot of ways and the way I built it the most was in the theatre, even just working door. You see so many people and interact with so many people and at some point it clicked, maybe when I wasn't even living there any longer. "No, we create the vibes here and people bring their energies and ideas here but we are a fully autonomous project, we run this place.” Of course I knew that going into it in theory, but it wasn't til a little later I felt that ‘where else in the world do you get to do this right?’ There are not many situations where you can say you are part of a collective easily.

Another thing Tplex taught me was, essentially, how to deal with trauma. That really got me interested in holistic health and herbalism and all these ways I didn't know or was so self aware how I was bringing all my childhood, teenage and young adult trauma into a place with other very traumatized people, in a very traumatized time. Dave K died and the FBI were coming to the door. There were rumors about the phones being tapped and Jesse and Aren going to prison and all this shit happening at the same time. Seeing how everyone was dealing with and responding to these stressors and traumatic events (and things) on top of running a really old house and everyone had their own personal lives.. that was a pivotal time for me in understanding how I was responding and dealing with all this stuff. And to break through the ice of drinking as something that was so common and normalized to realizing it didn’t have to be this way was also huge for me.. “Ok, what if it's radical to make some herbal tea or make a mocktail and sip on this and encourage my friends to do the same?” And though I am not straight edge and still drink sometimes I was really into that. It helped me and at some point I was able to take a step back and see…what's the temperature check and ask how is my community and loved ones doing and where do my actions and my decisions fall into the collective way of acting and being in relationship to one another? I think that was really magnified from all the drinking that was happening then. I don't know what changed? Maybe it was when I started learning about herbs and going through personal health issues and realizing I need to get my shit together and take care of myself. I started to see Trumbullplex as an asset and a place I can start to take care of, rather than harm myself. It really got my wheels spinning as coming back to the Tplex as a theatre collective member and not living there for a few years; I can bring some of my awareness and herbal knowledge of how trauma is stored in the body and how that manifests and why people respond a certain way when they communicate with each other or why people get angry and fight with each other when they are supposedly friends and why people feel distrustful. How to create understanding and options there outside of what I was seeing at the time as the norm. ‘How do we create a space where it is ok for me to confront fellow collective members and say no we shouldn't be smoking inside the space, it is triggering for me and other people.’ ‘Have we thought about some non-alcoholic options and water at shows?’ That whole shift in my way of operating happened from living there to being in the collective and that whole part of my life which has led me to now.

We talk about feeling welcomed and who helped her with that, aside from Sicily?

Kit and their dog (Elephante) and Erica and who were living there when I was going to potlucks. I felt there are some nice people here, and it's not that intimidating. Also Jesse and Megan and Patrick and Stacey were all there too.

Did you like the events or were they a little too much?

Yea. I lived for going to events! I feel like there would be people who said ‘I see you at every show!’ Yea, cause I live here! (Laughing.) That was the extroverted part of my life.

There were so many good events. I feel like Clara would book a lot of nice cozy indoor living room shows, not remembering exactly who- and she would also book a lot of just creative things like Debbie from Bitch magazine came and did an event and maybe this was you, but there was a queer and femme variety show that did a cool talk in the living room and the really good Purple Rhinestone Eagle shows were so fun! I brought my Mom and Grandma to one and my grandma smelled weed and thought it was funny. She was like ‘ahh they smoke marijuana here’ and I was like ‘yea, do you want to get down grandma' and I was just joking with her.

We had a really good New Years show one year with Tunde Olaniran and Invincible that you did. (yea that was the Y2K show). That was fun and I loved hanging out after the zine library was made. I loved hanging out up there (there was a low loft I built into it) and in the projection booth and kinda watching everybody. I also really loved all of the Nana Grizol shows I’ve ever been to at TPlex… just good memories of singing and dancing along with friends, like nothing could top that moment every time.

After I wasn't involved any more I remember you booked a really rad Darsombra show once. I kinda like the quieter more intimate shows, while like Definace Ohio, Suicide Machines, Mischief Brew packed shows were fun, I personally like the smaller ones. I remember Bellows from Minneapolis performing with the lights out and just candles or small lights and playing in a circle which felt very witchy and I loved it. There was a people’s radical history art show you did where Grace Lee Boggs spoke (Clara and I did that for the US Social forum) and when we did the cafe Turmbullplex that was always lots of fun! Somebody asked me if it was a restaurant once and made me feel like ‘wow we really pulled it off and seemed like pros and it was really cool.’ (We pulled off all sorts of things).

To be a destination within a whole network felt awesome and …made me want to work harder to make it better and I appreciated what it might be like for these other spaces, like in Chicago and Minne. I was interested in learning more about their history… I am curious if you interacted with other spaces or traveled to them much?

I found out a lot about other spaces through the Slingshot Organizer (this was a packed with activisty info., pocket sized or medium sized spiral bound organizer that was created by the Long Haul Infoshop in Berkley and we almost all used them) and when I went to Dublin once I made my family go out of the way to go to some potluck in what was basically a dinghy garage (laughter). When I was in Rhode Island as a student at Farmacy Herbs in 2011/12 there was a space there called Libertalia that was an anarchist space and zine library where there were potlucks and meetings (anarchist meetings) and yoga and book clubs. I was very open about my time at TPlex there and asked people if they knew about the Trumbullplex and when I moved to California was actually really close to the Long Haul Infoshop, but kinda regrettably never went to events there and was more of an introvert then, just studying for my masters degree and didn’t have a lot of energy to go out. Also I was working part time. I did go there when I first moved and introduced myself and they were nice. Maybe they didn't have a lot of events or were open a lot then? They showed me their archives and zine collection. I feel like when I would travel I would try to look up the different spaces like bookstores in Chicago or Blue Stockings in NY, but I haven't been there in a long time and that’s a little less fringe with their nice storefront, which is still a cool space.

Are you proud you were a part of the community and trumbullplex?

Yea. Definitely.

I actually met an ex-plexer when I was in California and maybe you knew them? I want to say it was at the el rio (not ABC no Rio (which I had also been to)) something like that; I was at a bar in the Mission, and met someone who knew Ray and Eric W.. Kit? Yea, and I was like ‘oh cool it's kinda like a frat, ha. I went to this other city and met another ex trumbullplex hanging out.’

We both talk about an alumni group and how that might help current or future folks etc. And I ask about photos?

My pictures were left on the bus for the 25th anniversary and I never went back to get them..Even though I met a few x-Plexers when I lived at Trumbull, I thought TPlex could benefit from an alumni group even then. While I feel it is important for whoever the current residents are to make the decisions and lead the way, I think it can be a really helpful resource to at least be able to reach out to former collective members for support and for continuity of collective memory.

Steady communal meals?

Somewhat. I think we did have some bulk ordering, but yea we would cook and eat a lot together. And we would have random community potlucks and for a year or two Sandman and I would do FNB (Food Not Bombs) together, maybe at the Crow. We would sometimes get some things from the garden, but I don't remember how we even had money for the food, cause I know I didn't have any money at the time, maybe just for “share” (this is what we often called our rent) and shows once in a while, some thrift clothes...

More talk about how meeting around a meal can actually be good. And into “working” while living there.

When I lived there I did work at TDU (Teamsters for a Democratic Union) and Labor Notes at the time and those would overlap, but it didn't interfere with anything. I just had enough money for share and a little extra. I really appreciated the days when I would get home and Clara or Louisa made dinner to share. I think we were mindful of making meals for each other.

(her kid wakes up)

…I started to feel alienated and started questioning those dynamics. ‘Why am I living with a bunch of white kids and I am a white passing/half white person’ and even so, I started thinking or feeling there was such a big cultural difference when I leave the vicinity of Trumbullplex and go to SW Detroit to hang out with my family or go anywhere else in Detroit. It was kinda like an island. I didn't have a car for some of the time I lived there or most of it, and I felt like there were weeks at time where I didn’t leave Woodbridge. (I feel like this is how it is for a lot of Detroiters city wide also). I would just never leave. I would go to University foods, Forest Liquor, Scripps Park, go to Sherry’s, go to the Crow and back to Turmbullplex. That was my radius at that time in my life. I think maybe when I first moved into Trumbullplex it was a lot less white and then became more and it just got me questioning ‘wait where are the Detroiters and who else grew up here?’ and it was just like Louisa and myself and Audra I think (yes, she was from this neighborhood we are in now). And knowing there was a subsidized housing project in Woodbridge and ‘how do we interact with those neighbors (FNB?) and felt like “we don't”... I just started questioning and the non white Latinx part of myself couldn't relate to most of my housemates and a lot of the cultural or family norms weren't always compatible with living collectively and sometimes were places where I felt misunderstood and the context of where I was coming from. Ray also grew up in Detroit but we didn't live together. But still everyone I am mentioning (who lived there) is white and it just got me thinking…

Matt was there from the beginning and someone I got to know while I lived at the Trumbullplex. He would periodically send us a package of really good seaweed he harvested in Maine and occasionally visit. This interview kicked off my research into the 80’s and 90’s (mostly US) anarchist scene and most of the people he mentions I did end up interviewing.

How was covid for you?

I was living in Somerville as an appellate public defender that summer which is the work I still do. I stayed home a lot and did my work. Most of my work is writing briefs and I argue in court maybe 6 to 12 times a year so I was able to move to Western Mass since I wasn't in the central office anyway. That worked out alright.

(…I don't think this interview will be too interesting to publish as is, I hope you don't as is but I'm sure I can give you names of other people to talk to that you may have forgotten about or may not have known about.)

Alright, let’s get going.

I guess it depends on when you determine when it started but as far as I remember I was the one who named it the Trumbullplex in conversation around 1993 when we bought it, but there were people living there beforehand and some of the same people who were living there beforehand stayed there. I'm going to say the beginning was the Summer of 1993 when the houses were purchased on a land contract from Perry. The signatures of the land contract at the time were me, Greg, Will and I think Tami.

And from what I heard Tam was like ‘I will loan you some money cause I want to have a place to come back to when I return from traveling in Europe’ but wasn't so interested in owning it collectively?

She came back and moved out shortly afterwards. I think those were the people on the legal document and around the same time I think we incorporated the W.A.C.H. and then at some point transferred the houses into that legal entity, as I recall now. So, in short I lived there in 93 when I graduated from high school and I don't think I was even 18 yet when I signed the documents since my birthday is in August. I left in stages so by 96/97 I was gone, maybe even a little before that.

So it was my understanding that you hung out a lot before moving in.

Yes, but I was more involved with a space called the 404 and that part of the Cass Corridor than I did Trumbull. Which, at least in my narrative, the seeds of Trumbull were planted at 404. I would sometimes go over to the houses cause some of the people who were involved at 404 happen to live there as well. Sometimes when we had bands play at 404 they would stay there but there wasn't a tight connection, just some overlap.

Was 404 organized around a collective model, and did you use consensus?

Yes, very much a collective. I would say yes we did (use consensus) but I don't have a particular recollection and we would have meetings. I don't remember any votes taken and it was heavily influenced by anarchism and consensus ideology. In reality it probably functioned in whoever was making the decisions will make them. You know where the space was right?

Yea I started going there in high school and played there once (it's probably more likely that I was out of high school then so, probably in 1991).

I started getting involved there in 1991. For me it was the transition of being down there all the time and when the Trumbull became available to getting involved in that cause Greg and Will were like ‘hey we have this opportunity, so let's do this’. Will lived in the small house on the corner with Greg on the 2nd floor and he was pretty involved with 404. I don't know at what point Sunfrog moved into Trumbull.

Before Trumbullplex, when I stayed there in Detroit, Andy (Sunfrog) and Lisa had this apartment in this old brick building by Wayne State, a couple blocks north of Warren and I would stay with them often. I don't think I ever stayed at Trumbull overnight back then, during 404 stuff. At some point they (Sunfrog and Lisa) moved in to Trumbullplex but not right away. When I lived there there was a woman named Sara Black above me on the top floor and she had a roommate, and so they moved into her room with their kid at some point. Who else?

Lessa? There was a 404 connection there also. They were also involved there but neither her or Leah were punks. They were theatre lesbians and had this group P.O.W. (Pissed Off Women). I was actually pretty close with Lessa and it was awesome living with her. She was involved pretty quickly.. There were definitely a couple different generations of people.

Were you mostly there or did you travel a lot?

I traveled. I would travel for a month or two every winter. I had this routine where I would go to Oakland and then to Central America, but that's another story.

There was Cara and Dominque.

Will lived at the house from the beginning just to be clear and Carol moved in quite a bit later.

Dominique is interesting because he lived there when the fire happened and everyone had to double up for a while, and folks from “the corner house” moved into “the big house”. His background is interesting because he was a monk for a while and then was just hanging out with us.

And I told you about Kristi who was someone I had met in between 10th and 11th grade at some writing camp on the west coast and we stayed in touch and she moved to Detroit.

There was Kim and her daughter. Richie, the dog sledder (not a dog sledder then) who was her partner. There is this guy Rob who was from the punk world who lived in the small house for a year or two and he's in BC and he has a pretty interesting life now. I kinda looked up to him when I was in high school and he was in his early 20’s, so he was kinda a mentor to me. He moved in a few years after me for a while.

There was this kid Shelby. He is like a professional bodybuilder now. He was also there during and after the fire and did a lot of repair work on the houses. He was friends with me and Kim and Richie. His body building photos are pretty intense.

[Lots more digging deep into his past for names of people he could recall]

I think I was on the finance committee and responsible for the money for a long time but also worked on the house a lot, but not everyone did that. Some people had jobs outside, like Lessa worked at a bookstore. For me the committees I was a part of were almost like full time jobs. I was working though, mostly at this health food store in Troy which kinda sucked to have to commute up there and other odd jobs around Detroit as well.

Do you remember your feelings about the city then in contrast to living in the suburbs?

The way I grew up I may have had a different perspective than some other people from the suburbs because I grew up mostly in Sao Paulo Brazil and so I was very comfortable with the city and was not afraid of Black people and I don't know how else to put it cause...

No, that’s the truth plain.

I hated the suburbs and moved there at the beginning of 11th grade. I was a skater and a punk and was in LA for 9th and 10th grade. I moved to Troy for my last years of high school and was trying to figure out what was what. So for me growing up skateboarding in Sao Paulo I was not intimidated by you know crime or social decay. I actually grew up getting robbed riding buses around, so it just seemed like normal, while the suburbs seemed very strange; which was not the experience of a lot of the people or no one I went to highschool with. People in Troy thought I was crazy for going to Detroit and in the early 90’s even less people from the suburbs would go down there. I was comfortable with my outsider status and growing up in punk rock I was used to hanging out around different people.

At 404 people took you under their wing and were welcoming. It was a small weird and very diverse scene and it wasn't just punks and it wasn't just white people, but a bunch of different people in the space together and I think Trumbull was a bit of an extension to that, although different because it was also a home where people were living.

Did you have any sense of what came before 404 and the arts and activism of the Cass Corridor (CC)?

Yea I did, because you know that scene was multigenerational. I was pretty lucky and I remember when I was in 10th grade writing Sunfrog a letter, not having met him yet, and moving from LA to Detroit. I had read his zine Babyfish, (pre internet) and in it there was mention of an anarchist that had a radio show in Detroit, so I wrote to him and asked him what the radio show was, which turned out to be Peter Werbe’s show and not that interesting to me then. I was aware of and would hang out with people who were a couple of generations above me as I was figuring out where I could plug into what was going on in Detroit. I would go to the 5th Estate offices and there was the Dally in the Alley and I was connected with those people and that history of the CC or that part of the CC. Also, my great grandparents moved to Detroit from Tennessee to work in the auto industry and my grandfather grew up not far from where Trumbull was. My only memory as a kid when visiting my grandparents was going to Tigers games, you know, which was down the street in the old stadium.

Michigan did not feel like home anyway so it wasn't like a return, I was more comfortable in Detroit than the suburbs, but home was more like Sao Paulo, kinda LA but I don't know… to tell the truth nowhere felt like home. I had some context for it, is what I mean. I could piece together what the Cass Corridor meant and that artist activist scene that you mentioned with the larger history of Detroit and make it make sense. My sense is the first generation of people at Trumbull did also have a sense of this and that they were building upon that history. Maybe people who came there through punk only had less of a connection or their experiences were more truncated so maybe not, but I'm kinda just guessing.

I talk about my history and my sense of visiting Detroit on the weekends etc., to me was coming home, so when I started coming to the city for shows, like at the 404 I had heard about the Freezer Theatre but only knew it was somewhere around that area and I feel like a lot of people kinda missed that…

It seems like that is almost two different histories, for lack of a better word there was the more hippy type of artists and others that were in the area. As a punk kid I was very aware of the punk legacy of that neighborhood and Detroit and as I was moving to Detroit I was curious if there were traces of that. For the first couple of months of living there I would go to shows at St. Andrews and was like ‘this sucks’ and the scene just seemed kinda stupid and I guess was lucky to stumble onto something better, I guess. I was aware of the punk history but the interconnection I'm not sure of.

Do you think the music, punk music was as important to getting you out looking or was it the people and the politics that were part of the scene that had you looking?

I wasn't a musician or in any bands so the music was only as important to me as it created a context for me to connect with people. I was definitely involved in the subculture, I would book shows and things like that and am grateful to it but was not totally self identified with it.

I was probably self identified as an anarchist in high school. I think at the time that was the only thing that made sense in terms of any group, any ideological formation that was keeping the flames of something more humanistic Left alive in the 80’s and 90’s. I was very aware of that too; the sort of slender threads tying that scene or those ideas to the past. The 5th Estate was a great example to have right in town and through that, maybe he has passed, but did you ever meet Federico Arcos? I was able to meet him and go to his house.

I did not get to but I was friends with Lorraine and was aware of him and had read his writing. [Federico was a Spanish anarchist who had fought in the Spanish Civil War and emigrated to Canada and Lorraine and her partner Freddy were Detroit anarchists who ran Black & Red Press who published and were friends with Federico.]

As I recall now a lot of my energy went into that kinda thing and I think it was 1993 maybe 1994 this gathering at Trumbull, I believe it was “a network of anarchist collectives”. That was a big deal and people came from all over, like Philly, Chicago, New York…

Well, Hilary had said that you all were quite connected so like when the fire happened there were people from the network showing up to help.

Yea, that's true too.

There were a lot of people at this gathering after we had bought the houses and it was like 3 or 4 days and was really amazing. Like all the people on Baltimore Ave (Philly) who were squatting- those houses, they were all there and people were talking about what they were doing in all these other cities. It felt like the most interesting people at that time were all there in Detroit for this. And it was that kinda of thing, that is what I definitely identified with more than punk.

Maybe Jeff Rice would know, he has an amazing memory and one of the people I met right away when I moved to Detroit, we were both in high school and doing things at 404. (I talk about my plan to go to the Interference Archives and maybe I can find more info about this gathering there…) Josh (McPhee) was at that gathering! I think he was going to Oberlin at that time and that is where I first met him. Or maybe he was coming from DC and was involved in the Beehive at that time? I think that is where I first met Jen Angel also.

Trying to find out if Love and Rage was discussed or other federation attempts at this gathering…

Matt says there was a L&R crew that was not Trumbull, maybe a little later. And it was different.

If memory serves, this was something called “the network of anarchist collectives”, NAC. This would have been a little bit of the opposite, not totally opposite side, but different than Love and Rage 'cause even then L&R was trying to be like a cadre organization. Even then if you read the anarchist press there were whisperings that these people are actually Trotskyists because they came from a Trotskysist organization and they will go back to that and in fact they did which I don't have a problem with any of that, but it's different than the very “no we are collectives and we are non hierarchical”. It's a little bit of a different tradition. And not many people in the world would understand that but you and I. (laughing)

And it's not like many people would be as excited to learn about this to try and research it more as I am right now, ha…

We were also different from say the 5th Estate and that whole kinda primitivist thing. I would say in a broad sense, kinda ecumenical, didn't have a very broad defined ideology like L&R tried to, We were more interested in collective action. We were connected with all sorts of groups across the country like us whether they were info shops or houses, like for example Not Squat in Philly which was connected to the A Space right down the street from it. Another example would be like the A Zone in Chicago and another example a little further afield would be the Long Haul in Berkeley. All these people visited the houses and so we knew each other. There were people in St Louis who had a couple of houses we were connected to and in Toledo too.

I echo how I was very intrigued about our network when I lived there and whether there were indeed the past connections he is talking about, with places and people like the Azone, (in my time) we were creating relationships with, like.. was this a thing before and was there a gap in that continuity?

I mention the zine Passionate and Dangerous and how it was like a spotlight on these anarchist collectives and Matt says he thinks he has a copy of that somewhere…

I go on to talk about how I sorta came to the TPlex through ARA (anti racist action) when I moved back and how I had been involved with collectives on the West coast and was older nearly by 10 years than most of the kids I lived with, but not all.

The next thing that group of people did, in my perspective, was to organize to protest the DNC in Chicago in 1996, “Active Resistance” and I think that was something that was extremely important and was the staging ground for Seattle in 99. Again, from my perspective. But a lot of people that met in 96 which from this perspective was a super low point of the US left especially of any youth culture but somehow we managed to pull this pretty intense thing off, this nationwide gathering to protest Democrats. It was crazy, we got raided by the police a bunch but a lot of the same people there, were in the background of Seattle 99, which is when things started to heat up and grew up.

My sense is Trumbull became less multigenerational with time. I don't know if that is true, but it's been through so many different changes and I wasn't connected. It seems like for a time it was multigenerational and multi-cultural and then it got flattened and I have no idea what it is now.

I say, that’s almost a whole other story but in short it's moving towards a Black Youth Artist space.

Oh ok, cool.

We talk about Marius Mason and other stuff for a bit...

Did you know and interact with the neighbors much?

Well there was this guy Billy I used to hang out with a bunch. Was he around when you were there?

Not only was he but he still is around.

Billy and I had our ups and downs but I used to go over to his house and hang during my time at Tplex.

Did you have a sense of Woodbridge being a gay neighborhood?

I dont know… I mean there were definitely lots of gays around…

I mean it's different than a lot of cities and different than what some people think of in Detroit as a gay area, but the more that I thought about it there were a lot of neighbors who were gay and/or identified as queer, plus Trumbull too.

When I was there there was P.O.W. (Pissed Off Women) and also there was the Michigan Womyn's Music Fest…and those people would stay with us who were going to that. No connection to the punk scene really but

And in my time we would get queer folx going to camp trans staying with us (in relation to what he is saying…).

I had met Mick and Sherry (fellow Woodbridge neighbors) before at 404 or at the Dalley maybe but I didn't hang out with them and didn't see them as people I would hang out with because I was pretty young, 17 -22. In retrospect I wish I would have. I knew it was connected, but I didn't totally understand that scene that Sunfrog and 5th Estate people did. I would see them at the Co-Op which was right at the corner of Willis up from 404. I was a member and worked there so I would interact with some of those people of that generation as well. Tuka is someone you may know from that generation who kept connecting to the younger generation? I always really liked her and clicked with her.

Jen Boyak. I think she was a friend of Gregs and lived on the 3rd floor of the big house for about a year and lived with Sarah Black who played cello. She was great and I loved the way she played her cello. I don't think they were that involved as collective members and it was a different situation, so I remember it was like some people were like tenants and some people were collective members and that was awkward sometimes. I don't remember if that was even explicitly true for some people, that that was the arrangement. And when they moved out it was like from now on the people who are going to live here are going to be collective members. At times we needed people to fill up the space and maybe we lied to ourselves about their interest or capacity to be involved as members. I only vaguely remember doing interviews for people to move in.

I remember that we had a retreat nearby in the country and talked about the mission (or making one) over a weekend. I don't remember the content of it at all.

That made me remember that we had a retreat at Circle Pines with NAC people also.

Do you remember the meetings as being productive generally?

I remember there were good and bad meetings, times of tension and times of more functionality. I don’t have any particular memories of the meetings but what I remember was being against the purchase of the house on the SW side which later transformed into the Womyns House. That happened after I left though.

The ARA house debacle?

I do remember feeling a lot of stress around stuff but nothing specific comes to mind.

There's been a critique.. you get all these people together with this huge and perhaps overwhelming project of repairing the houses along with what comes with living in an intentional community, the activism component and the theatre but we did not really ever address how they show up, that potential for carrying a load of emotions and issues already (“baggage”).

Do you feel like you had a hard time coming together because of more deeper personal issues or interpersonal communication issues…

I guess I reject the premise of that question that it could ever be otherwise. I think people are always going to have baggage and I don't know how to address things apriori before you start working together. Yes, I definitely think people had baggage and trauma as we all do. I recall in any project I've ever been in anywhere people have that. I think the bigger problem was “why?” Why are we putting all this energy into fixing these two houses you know? That wasn't always clear. For some people this was a great opportunity because we would never be able to own something like this. The type of people we are and choices we made in our lives... so this was an opportunity to control our own destinies in a way and have access to this resource, which is real and physical, with the heritage of connections Trumbullplex has, but if you don't really step back and think about it too hard, it can become a situation where you can not even know why you are doing that.

I think it becomes even more difficult in a place like Detroit where people have other options right? If you sit down and think about it for a while you can buy your own house without much capital, at least you could in the past. There wasn't even necessarily a real scarcity of that while in another city like Philly or something like that makes people stick around longer and the purpose becomes more clear. You don't have the opportunity to do anything else. I don't know but it's not immediately clear to me whether the project of fixing up old houses and a theatre is what people should be spending all their time doing. There might be other things to do too. You might want to be involved with really interesting politics but not do that.

Do you think without the theatre it still could have served as a beacon and refuge for the lost youth or people looking for something (community/ the politic) deeper to connect with?

I don't know how much work the theatre did in that? A lot of my reckoning is the theatre was sort of dead weight and a pain in the ass to deal with that roof and the termites. It was great to have and without it, it might have just been two random houses so it's hard to say.

My understanding for example was that it served as a place for people to have meetings and for Trumbull and the anarcho punks could then serve a purpose in some ways that was useful to others like for example with the newspaper strike or ARA or something?

From my perspective as a 404 person, we tried to keep 404 running for a good one to two years after we got Trumbull and it just became impossible because there was so much overlap between the groups of people trying to do both that we were overextended and couldn't and basically under capitalized. I always thought that 404 was a much superior show space, event space and meeting space even though it was tiny. It didn't have all the baggage of being connected to anybody’s home and it was in an area that was a little more accessible and felt more open to everybody than Trumbull did, in a more residential neighborhood. So in my perspective Trumbull Theatre was 2nd best to 404. I think I always pined for 404 and maybe that is going to be an unconventional answer…

Do you have any feelings now and maybe this is an aside or moving on, but you have not been back for over 10 years or so, to why that is the case?

Yea I don't think I have been back since that summer I was working at the Detroit ACLU when I was in law school, 2010 I think.

To me it's curious that all that history of art and activism, including 404 and the now common narrative about gentrification seems so true in the Corridor while right at that block was our counter culture which became so gentrified and one of the symbols of the city “coming back”. Avalon had to close its doors at the flagship enterprise because they couldn't afford to stay there any more.

They were like the original gentrifiers! Or maybe they think 404 was the original gentrifiers, who knows?

It is interesting cause I have lived in a lot of different places after that time in Detroit so if Detroit is gentrified then…that word just has so many different meanings in different places, but if you look at it block by block it's definitely true. Wayne State kinda was an anchor even then that made things a little more financially viable at the time then the rest of Detroit, so it makes sense that it was the first to regentrify.

Did you think of Tplex as a unique experiment?

Yea.

Cause it wasn't a squat or punk house or a formal co-op… I'm just not actually sure how many people appreciate that and see it like that.

I think it was really unique and a singular time in history too. I think the closest you can get to it, in the same period of time, is in those 3 blocks in West Philly on Baltimore Avenue. Where you had houses that were not just squats, some of them were bought and also intense community activism that were connected to a larger degree of activism in their neighborhoods. They were not completely punk but also punk. Yea, I think they are pretty unique and I was completely aware of how unique the Trumbullplex was at the time and proud of it.

Are you aware of any documents or books about that in Philly?

I don't know, not really. There was definitely a whole history with Center for Non Violence or whatever that was called that was like their basis for the buying of a lot of houses in that neighborhood where the A space was housed, but I know people who would know. Do you know Erik? Erik who makes art.

Yea.

I mean he’s another Detroit person and came to us to interview us about anarchism when he was in high school.

I mentioned I am going to Philly and plans to interview people about that history, hopefully. And the punk overlap and my friend Kane who lived at CIndergarten that was connected to Knot Squat for 17 years.

Yea I knew Eric [Kane] during all that time. He was a little bit younger than me and I remember the scene where he came from being these boring straight edge kids but was one of the people who managed to make that transition and turn into somebody really interesting.

I go on about my plans…

I was aware of LES ( lower east side of NYC) squatter community and read the Shadow which was the magazine of that community that predates punk but was pretty punk and I first bought it at a punk show at 404 like in 1990. I went to the squats when I would go to New York even when I was in high school. I do think Philly is a closer match. Just how Trumbull straddled different worlds like how we were also connected to the Co-op movement in Ann Arbor, like those people I think lent us some money, I don't remember exactly for what. We were always weird in that a couple of us were students, I never was a student but I think Will was, maybe he was the only one. We were sorta enlisted in that group too or trying to harness that relationship for financial resources.

I explain my thoughts about the creation of WACH thus far…

Yea, I remember Will and I drove up to Lansing on a cold winter day to file our incorporation papers. I remember the first winter I lived there we had no heat and everyone had these space heaters in their rooms and were probably kerosene, so we had to buy kerosene. Is that still a thing in Detroit?

Yes and I would dare say that part of the history of all the fires in the city is that heating in that way was dangerous and it was commonplace and did lead to a certain amount of house fires, etc.

I had forgotten about the whole heating situation until you just mentioned it. Yea that is super scary.

Were you aware of the previous uses of the houses and it had this history …

Yea I was aware that there had been weird people living there and I knew some of them. Like there were these sort of older musicians (to me probably and actually in their late 20’s or early 30’s..) who lived there at the time and would sometimes play these open mics at 404, I forget their names.

I had heard there was somebody who did large metal sculptures ?

I do remember hearing maybe from Mick or Sherry that there was a very large Cherry tree carved in there (the theatre) and made into a sculpture and being told that in WWII it got converted into a bullet factory, which doesn't really make sense. Even though Detroit in the industrial revolution there was all sort of a small stuff happening so maybe. I don't have anything, those are just stories.

What would be interesting to know because there must be a date certain on this is when the theatre was built, that addition. …

Did you have a favorite part of the physical spaces? Or details.

I had the room that had access to the theater roof, those two rooms that had the half window (later must have got uncovered) and I appreciated that, but it also made me a target for robbery.

Do you remember having a lot of stuff going on like that?

I think I did more than anyone because I was like hanging out with this 10 year old kid from the neighborhood and he then unfortunately began scaling the back and stealing stuff from me. It became a really fucked up situation. I don't recall much, other than people getting their car batteries stolen, cause you know it was Detroit.. Yea it was mostly just that kid and his friends that I hung out with for a year before he started stealing from me, I don't think other people had kids they hung out with.

Do you feel Trumbullplex has a relevance or significance in this current political moment?

I have no idea how to answer that? It's something different now right?

I guess as an “alternative” space that hosts youth.

Yes in that way for sure. I mean Detroit is an easy place, I mean it's hard in a lot of ways at least it was an easier place to acquire the resources to do that and once you acquire them it is difficult to keep them up and maintain them but yes those spaces are so important still.

I go on about what I learned about conflict resolution etc.

I think the people who founded it were pretty aware politically of these idealized modes of conflict resolution and decision making based on consensus, I mean we tried even if I dont think it always worked. And from where I stand I dont think consensus is necessarily the way everything should happen either. It certainly has its place.

Others have said they have also come away questioning the use of consensus or when it's not the best means and Trumbull was not the only opportunity for them to draw their certain conclusions. It’s interesting that there are similar takeaways...

I would actually say that a house or living situation is probably where it is most appropriate so I don't know that I would walk back from wanting consensus in the situation I am living in but i can't extrapolate that to ‘this is how the world should run’ which is what I think some people do, take from that “our goal here is to show how consensus works in this project and this is an example of how the world could work, everything could be running on consensus.” So I have problems with that. I don't think it is persuasive, for lots of reasons. It's interesting to think about where consensus came from, right? At least when I got involved with stuff, in the early 90’s, the default of decision making amongst a radical left, which at that point was mostly influenced by anarchism. I think the readings I've done trace the lines to the Quakers and the anti nuclear movement. I think that is interesting and that was picked up by The Clamshell Alliance, picked up by the environmental movement and we had a lot of people into that through EF! (Earth First!) and 5th Estate and because it was one of the threads of radicalism that was not basically destroyed in the 70’s and 80’s and retained that consensus was one of the things to pick up on. I think it's just interesting to know that history and once you know it, be a little skeptical of it.

Do you still identify as an anarchist?

I’m not an anarchist but I definitely identify with the principles and ethics and the ethical heritage of anarchism.. I think it is an important and beloved tradition, and my leftism has a State skepticism in it but I am not an anarchist.

Were there any absolute takeaways regarding things you learned or …

I can't think of anything right now and it did change my life in a way but I think if it hadn't been for that I would have ended up somewhere very similar to that. I think for all the reasons we discussed Trumbull was pretty unique because Detroit is a unique place but I think I would have ended up somewhere culturally and politically similar at that time in my life. Me and the people I was doing it with were instrumental in creating it so if anything we changed ourselves. We kinda kept doing what we were doing at 404 and implementing all the stuff we’d do anyway on a different canvas.

Any regrets or anything you wish you would have done differently there?

(laughter) I just wish we had more money. I don't regret it and as you know we were just putting a lot of band aids on things that needed to be done right the first time, but it's impossible to do that unless you had the money.

Do you recall talking about or taking any action to change the demographic of the residents, trying to do different types of events for more representation or to serve the immediate community.

I don't remember anything specifically but I was against it turning into a punk show space. I didn't really have any idea of what, you know we had some political events there, some talks by people and I wanted to keep the theatre stuff going but not just another 404. If I recall there was a separate theatre collective at some point. I didn't want it to turn into just a music space.

I think the time that I was there I did not perceive it as a punk space and the majority of the shows were not punk shows, during those early years.

I talk about how the theatre collective helped me to be around there a lot and not live there…participating in work days and passing on my knowledge of the spaces etc

Yea, that's essential but what happens when someone like you is not there? I think that is another aspect I think because of my background partly I had intense guilt after leaving there. I was leaving something behind that I was responsible for and taking that for what it's worth (laughter). I was like I’ll be back, but …

I mean it's a lot and for a lot of people it was the hardest thing and the greatest thing and as you rack up those years there and are now into your 20’s or 30’s…

Yea the age thing is something. I think the time that I lived there was most diverse in terms of age though maybe not.

We had some people like Scott from Pontiac. I talk about the Vegan grocer and …

We had this guy named Harry and he was quite a bit older and lived on the first floor of the big house.He had a lot of books and we would talk about books a lot.

At this point I am trying to wrap up and appreciate how long we have been talking, but still have questions…

Meetings, potlucks and sharing of food?

There were definitely potlucks and I don't remember the meetings as being part of the potlucks.

Is there anything about me telling this story… or anything I've missed or should pay particular attention to?

I can't think of anyone better to do this than you. You seemed to have been in the middle and have a sense of the beginning and the end as far as who lived there..not the end but the current time and awareness of where it’s been at different intersections of culture. But if I do I will let you know.

Are you at all interested in being kept up to date with this effort or part of an alumni network?

Yea, totally. Sounds good.

I appreciate this work and I appreciate you and the work you have done to keep me connected to Trumbull when I would come back there and I just wanted to say it was nice to have some sort of entry point back into that world.

Say hi to the people in Philly for me and keep in touch…

Permission given and no pre approval necessary on quotes just ‘legally can not talk about charges against our friend.

Years involved? Lived there 2006/2007 and moved out and then back in for a summer, 2007.

(Tripod with mic falls over!)

What was your experience before moving in, had you volunteered or gone to shows?

I had gone to shows, just one or two in high school and went to a couple after moving to Detroit, for Americorp, when I was living near WSU. I met Bo through Americorp.

Not on the list! (always forgetting people)

I do not know his last name and don’t remember him so much other than he was really into Megan and it was making Jesse really angry.

Oh yea, I remember.

I think he actually moved out before I moved in.

And you are done with school at that point?

Yea. Doing City Year, the ones in the red jackets.

In high school when you went, did it seem like more than the show and a political project or something more?

For me it was just for the shows for sure and in high school I wasn't so political at all. That wasn't til college so it was more to do with that when I moved in.

Jumping ahead…are you surprised the Tplex has lasted 30 years?

(laughter) Yes. Maybe not surprised that it’s lasted but just that anything can last that long with young people coming in and out regularly, that is surprising. And I assume that it is very different than it was when I was there.

Trying to remember my thought…

Did you think of the Tplex as a unique experiment in that it wasn't a squat or a co-op, it wasn't just a living situation but had the theatre. It was not on the outskirts of the city but in a neighborhood? Just curious about those early impressions..

I thought it was a really cool experiment in part …and I was thinking about this the other day before we talked, about the interview I did, before I moved in. I was really jazzed about doing it because up to that point everything had felt very theoretical, the politics in my mind all felt theoretical and as a philosophy major there wasn’t the actual doing of the thing. It was a sort of space where I was like ok now I am actually going to start doing the things and not navel gazing sitting around talking about justice or whatever and I didnt know what the thing was. I didn't grow up around it and have a sense of what “it” was I was supposed to be doing. So for me anyway it was a chance to experiment with that and figure out where I fit in..

And to your other question, it was a place that didn't just have one method of doing “the stuff”, it made space for folks to come in and figure out what part of it they could be really useful to the whole. You could come in and be like “the theatre is really my bag” and then there is an opportunity to do that and jump into that work. And if it was like not (this or that), since I wasn’t a musician and didn’t have connections or know what was good, there wasn’t a bunch of pressure to make that the thing you did with your spare time . It was like “oh you garden and feed people, rad” and that is where I could fit in and it not be about the narrowness about the work in the garden and I think a big part of that is being in the neighborhood that it is in. There are those networks of radical folks in and around there so it wasn’t just Trumbull, that was like the jumping off point. So what am I going to do with my time? I can experiment with some things and there is this built-in group of folks who are like why not work in the backyard or down the street or here’s Rich-he does bees and Sherry, she saves seed and from there you can build outward right. I’m sure for those who are into the theatre it’s similar and this built in opportunity for people to come in and support the cool stuff and then when they start doing that, like a band and think “I want to go to Toledo, who is there” and…

I definitely begin to think of it as an access point.

For people like me we had no fucking starting point at all.

Also, often for even younger people who are stuck out kinda far out there and feeling like they need something or maybe already into punk or just an inclination to dig or work for something else and when they found it were like wow. I talk about Matt Spurlock and how he was young when he started coming around (Lou was young), yea. I think maybe there was some joking also but people generally tried to be patient and not demeaning to young folks coming around and answer questions which I think is a really great thing and maybe they are not quite your peers but to be told you are a part of this (if you want to be).

I think that’s exactly right. I was out of college at that time but I was really immature in terms of life experiences. I had held down jobs but basically didn't know anything.

Some people definitely looked at it as sorta grad school or furthering their growth and development.

Do you remember being given the mission statement or talking about it much at your interview?

I don’t think so… (uncertain) It was short I think and a time when the membership was really thin. 6 or 7 people were living there at the time.

Yea, that’s a real thing and happened with the ebbs and flows at times.

After you moved in do you remember talking about or thinking about the mission statement much?

Honestly, I don’t remember that. I remember talking about the history of it and what it was. At the time there was just a lot to do and we were really focused on the work? In terms of trying to work on the theatre and trying to keep Corner House from falling down.

Oh, I forgot to wear my “long live corner house” button for you.

(laughs) So, I remember having this theoretical underpinning of anarchism and radical theory but not engaging a ton with the mission or the theory but again what’s the work I am going to do and that could be just a reflection of my memory of it because it was what I was so focused on. I mean Patrick was there and that seems like a Patrick thing to focus on. They’re more detail oriented, I’m sure there was a checklist.

For some people they appreciate that documentation and others it is about the work and the doing, and matters less what “they” ( those who wrote the mission) wanted back then than what we need now. You will find both people around. I don’t recall when, maybe even 10 years ago by now, a bunch of people went through and tried to study it [the mission] and updated it some. That was important to them to check with it and see if this is something we… and they ended up not really doing too much changes.

Oh cool.

Yea for me I think if it lasts that would be a cool thing to sort of pass along that every 5 or 10 years take a look at it.

I spend a lot of time now thinking about whether or not institutions are just collections of individuals that happen to be present at the moment and having a bit of skepticism of mission statements as a thing that doesn’t change. It’s interesting that folks that are overlapping might come back to revise as the group changes to give it some sort of continuity. If you don’t do that or it doesn’t adjust, it will or can end up that collection of individuals.

Are you comfortable critiquing the collective and or what were roses and thorns or just the frustrations of your participation?

Yea. For me a lot of my thorns were tied up with a love-hate relationship with the city in general, so it may be hard to untie from some of that. (that is ok and is another question)

It felt like a crazy time in the city and the naughts felt sometimes really violent in places and were directed at us. Nicole died at that time and she didn’t live at the house but she was friends with me and Amas and Louisa so that was tied into it sometimes too. We felt super connected to the micro community but not at all to the broader (or at least I didn’t) to the broader city. I don’t know if we could have changed that or forced it.. And I remember talking to people who lived there later and that was a priority for them. Wanting to do more outreach and be a more diverse group of folks living there cause it was a lot of young white leftist kids living there from the burbs, so it is weird that I, for the first time in my life, found community but it was also really narrow. It felt hard at the time to maintain that and branch outward.

It makes sense in a way though, because you want to find people with like minds and people you can build good relationships with and feel empowered to then be like “what next”? But there is a lot of questions at work right there and on some level this is something I will explore that I may end up catching some heat for how I present it. There might be an argument to be made that it was the place for young white people that have their own baggage, issues around racism and class to gather, learn and grow from one another. Then you have the opportunity to even meet people different from you just in the neighborhood and walking down the street while you are on the porch (unlike some of the burbs) and some of those people did not previously know a lot or talk to many black people. (they were young and did not yet have a lot of experiences and where they lived…)Also, Trumbull was not necessarily the best place to just be totally open and invite people in to live in this very fucked up thing.

Yea it does give some of those white folks the opportunity to work through their own shit without putting a burden on somebody else.

That’s what I am saying. And when I or if I get the opportunity to interview all the ex-plexer’s who were mixed or black or POC I have a feeling I am going to hear that it was hard and “it was not my shit a lot of the time”. We’ll see

Yea, it was all on me.. I also think had I been there longer that might have changed too. As you figure out some things and deal with yourself for a little while and I assume you are at a better place to reach out and be like “hey what’s up, how's it going, what’s going on today with you?” I mean, only there for a year and half or two years…

For me I had the opportunity to make some friends particularly with one group of young people who lived in the neighborhood and one young man who lived at Freedom Place and got to easily make their day (perhaps) by not being annoyed they were stopping by to hang out or whatever . I’m like “hey let’s go in the theatre you guys I have to do some cleaning and you can fuck around on the mic on the stage”. “Yea. that’s what we wanted you to say!” And to just be neighborly, share that resource and probably even at some point would have said “hey tell your mom where you are and if she needs to talk to me that’s cool”. Just getting back to that village or community you know, like “hey don't just get into trouble’ you know, this is an option if you are bored. AND I know for a fact some people early on in the project got burned by local kids too. The effects of racism and capitalism run deep and the breakdowns are everywhere so kids steal sometimes.

Yup. I remember all my tools got swiped at Back Alley on one of the volunteer days. And I learned to work through that shit and even more productively now than back then.

Culturally did you ID with punk or DIY or whatever growing up?

Yea for sure I definitely did. And later had a sense of and felt comfortable owning the political part of it.

Were you involved with other collectives?

I worked with BAB (Back Alley Bikes) quite a bit while I was at TPlex, like the volunteer nights and some FNB’s (Food Not Bombs) and I think Sasha was mostly running point on that, at that time, so I did that intermittently. I would go up and milk at CFA (Catherine Ferguson Academy) every now and then with Jesse but was not a regular volunteer with that. Those were the main ones. Most of my time was spent at the house's garden or at Back Alley.

Did you come across or have actual conversations that those were radical activities or a critique of that vs just cool things to do? I know some people would be like that’s not organizing or doing anything..

You are just feeding your friends on the corner of MLK and no one else is coming…yea, which is what it felt like at times and why it fizzled out, though I can’t remember exactly why. I think because folks were not showing up for the food and it wasn’t what they wanted. We were not organizing in any sort of cohesive or coordinated way; it was more like we were grappling with that idea but were not knowing how to do it.

Yea there is certainly was a critique out there that the vegetarian or veganism might not be serving people with where they are and of course there is a whole history of that and off shoots of FNB, in Detroit even like Food To You and or just called “soup kitchens” which also had a connection to young Detroit anarchists and such.

Where you aware of the predecessor to Tplex, 404 Willis? No. or the history of arts and activism in the CC?

I had a little bit of a sense of it mostly cause I came across a lot of old Fifth Estates at Corner House and was like “what’s this?”. I certainly did not have a sense of it before I moved there and eventually would hear things second hand here and there but nothing so specific.

I go on to talk about how those things are linked together… and ask do you remember hearing about ARA?”

Yea, from shows I do remember that, nothing super organized but every now and then would show up at a hard core show and there may be a fight (against racists) but I think that had largely passed by the mid aughts. It was a thing when I was in high school though in 98’ and 99’. There were fights at the Shelter or an Agnostic Front show or whatever, so I guess I had a little political awareness in high school. It was kinda more like pick a side and get in a fight , so I did, but I don’t think I had a sense of(hard to hear)

When I was in high school and played 404 and went down for a few shows and got my hands on my first anarchist lit but it wasn’t really til years later I was able to and barely sorta regurgitate what I thought about those politics or identify with them. It took me a while…

For me it was definitely aesthetic for a good period of time, then theoretical then the chance to operationalize some of it.

For me I got a lot out of the power of the DIY community but did not see it as political then…I would see some bands like Crudos though and it really began to click.

Were there any significant events or undertakings that immediately come to mind when you think back on your time at Trumbull?

I think when we got the garden down the street reopened that was really rad. And most of my time and memories revolved around gardening and where I learned a shit load. I had almost no experience with that before. I did Urban Roots and I think Patrick was teaching it at the time and maybe he got me into it and in some ways maybe went whole hog into that. So time down the street and in the back yard and I had some experience with not construction but fixing stuff on the house growing up so I did some of that too with Jesse on the Corner House, but getting the gardens going again, that felt really good.

It sounds like you were a pretty willing participant, do you feel like you did you share?

(a hesitant) ..Yea. I think I got a lot more than I put in or I left.

Well some people you know it was hard for them to participate because their work or school demanded more from them or even if we were frustrated that people were in a spot that they were also not paying their share but we were trying to appreciate different places we were in, I do want to ask.

I did pay my share, maybe that last summer not totally.

Did you see it as a place that had cheap rent so you could do activism or not have to follow the expectations of the …dominant norms?

That is what made it possible. For me the driving force was a strong need for community. That was huge.

Did you travel to other collectives because of your Trumbullplex connection, like the AZone in Chicago or.. ? For some people at times that was also huge because they needed to explore.

Certainly not out of Detroit but at times would go to the Pumpkin for parties or down to the Crow for shows or to work on their house or whatever but not much outside of Detroit. When I first got here I tried a little. I went to Red Emma’s in Baltimore but I am not good with people I don’t know, so I think I walked in and maybe had a panic attack and walked out. I think if Kit had not moved here I don’t know what I would have done and maybe just moved home to Michigan. I really don’t think I would have stayed in D.C. because I am not good with people I don’t know and I don’t think I would have walked in to Trumbull if Bo had not been there. I still don’t do rooms of people I don’t know.

Do you remember what music you were listening to at the time?

Whatever that was going through the house, a lot of Defiance, Ohio a lot of Witch Hunt, a lot of Nana Grizol and I don't know that has changed at all in the past 15 years. I swear to god it’s largely the same soundtrack. I listened to a lot of punk and hard core in high school and college and had not been exposed to much and from my parents like The Kingston Trio, so that was very cool to have more than just the base punk but more political and different bands.

OK so one question I ask is if you are an anarchist and I am not necessarily looking for a Yes or No answer but more of how you feel about those politics now and it’s relationship to Trumbull..

I would say yes I do identify as one but I vote now. In some ways I am still very interested in the action of it, like the community building aspect of it and the potential it has. And that’s almost like outside of politics and more of a framework as a way to make decisions about what I do. In some ways I also allow myself to be ok with an understanding I can’t control what other people do. I think my main discomfort with politics is it is predicated on always getting somebody else to do something and I am not convinced I am good at that in any way, so organizing to me so far is that I can be of service to folks in my community and that makes a lot of sense to me.

In that way, traditional, collective based anarchism is a good model for asking oneself if this is a good use of my time and a good project worth doing or should I change how I eat, who I spend my time with, how I spend my money, should I change my job? For me it is a useful framework for how I interact with the world as opposed to formal politics ie. organizing other people.

I think I may be an anarchist in a significant minority and am comfortable with that. I don't actually believe in the fundamental goodness of people. I wish I did but I don’t think I do and so for me it is a useful metric for organizing myself and the circle of folks I try to have around me and work with and will let the relative political left try and control everybody else's worst instincts. (uneasy laughter)

Struggling to formulate the question… do you think people are more than before ready to try and understand the things that make up anarchism like mutual aid, direct action, cooperation..

Yea, cause at least in my neighborhood and I’m sure there have been people involved in mutual aid networks during Covid who interacted with that way of thinking about organizing and stayed with it and in a way engaged with it in a way that if someone came to them with the theory now they would be receptive too mutual aid as a framework at least in the context of weird context based shortage of resources people were able to latch onto or at least relatively progressive wealthy folks were able to latch onto as a way of thinking ‘I can do something good useful with my time’ in a way they probably wouldn’t have been if just starting with the theory or frankly if there wasn’t a crisis basis for it.

I share my hopes for reaching more than the anarchists and Left with a Trumbullplex book and I think I am trying to respond to Pat’s somewhat more individualist take on it…

You have talked about it some but did you know and interact with the neighbors and to what degree?

In terms of neighbors it was the close community of folks and so I knew Seneetha a little bit but more Mick and Sherry and Audra was living in the neighborhood at that point and everybody down at the Crow and that grouping of folks were always around. There was something really cool about no matter what time of day it was there was always somebody around that you knew. On a Saturday I could easily grab a 40 walk down the street and bump into someone with them and that was different and a very cool thing. Again it was not the whole neighborhood but sort of like the sub community of folks who were super close and maybe it’s not but that felt very unique and continues and I don’t know at that time where else it existed and now I am sure it exists in some form. At that time it was life changing.

I had no sense of community at all before Trumbull and when I think of it now it feels like that is the thing.

Sounds like that is one of your big takeaways from the experience, so what else was there?

Anything…

I think a big thing was I learned in that community to be comfortable with myself. Especially with college I was trying to fit into communities I clearly did not feel I fit into and around Trumbull was a community I felt I did fit in but I wasn’t the same. I am sure I had similarities and demographically too but big differences too. I got to be my weird self that was radically accepted and it’s funny when I first moved out here I felt I wanted to start something in D.C. like what I had and then it fizzled a little and maybe because I now feel very comfortable being my weird ass self. We have a really good network of folks here now but if Kit and Erika had not moved here back in the day I’m sure I wouldn’t have stayed AND connected me with my wife as a product of being here and what kept me. I didn't feel like I needed more now that I am comfortable with my weird self and if I go back home I go to those Trumbull folks I lived with first. Especially as that core of folks dissipated I realized I don’t need them as much or all to be in one place any longer. I am good with being me in a city full of people in ill fitting suits obsessed with their jobs. I don’t know how you recreate that for the youth and maybe if I kept on with that I could have built something but that’s what I mean when I say I got back a lot more than what I put in.

I love that.

It fundamentally changed my life and if I am to be serious about it I was struggling and I don’t know how much longer I would’ve…

Yea, it’s not a healthy world even for privileged kids. I mean we know. Dave had a lot right? And people all over do but we should count ourselves lucky for these experiences of love and radical acceptance.

Exactly.

And now we know when we see people talking and building anything like that we are like right there, that’s the fucking shit…

Trumbull was where I did not have to center the things I was in opposition to and focus on being in a place we can try to get the most of us we can through.

I think that is a thing that movement people/activists are figuring out too. You circle up with your people and you can withstand the attacks and the rough times and you can figure out boundaries and you can then stay in that life and just really live. Someone can almost be like a sleeper or something cause they might feel like “I don't actually do anything..” but you are still here and you might figure out that calling and of course if you are not still alive and here well how much can you do then?

I have one question I have got some push back from, about our baggage or trauma that you have brought to your experience there, so I will try to rephrase it: Do you feel like there was healing when you were there?

I think it gave me the tools I needed to do that and I don’t know that I needed to heal, I just needed that space to feel comfortable being myself. I don’t have any particular trauma while coming up and maybe happened when I was living at Trumbullplex. In some ways there was just so much death and it was one of the reasons why I left.

The worst of it was the people who died like Dave and Nicole and a general pain in the city at the time felt out of control. People were getting stabbed for no reason. And the thing that I always struggled with and may be interesting with this project as it looks at the Tplex over the years cause mine was a time when the city was going into bankruptcy and it was mayhem. Can a community like that exist outside a space where the people who are experiencing the trauma that mayhem creates are not us? That was always a thing in the back of my head that Tplex is this amazing unique opportunity you can do that (a lifestyle) in a context where people are also being murdered all the time like my experience there was made possible because of a lot of trauma that was happening to other people really outside our community. We had our own trauma not self inflicted but (particular) that broader context of could Trumbull survive on H street here, there is no fucking way. You can not just start a garden in a lot!

Yea, some people have definitely answered my question if they were surprised if Trumbull was still around real quick with “ it’s just because it is Detroit”.

Yea, it’s just those circumstances and what gross circumstances because the people who are REALLY suffering make that possible. I mean yea you can do that out in rural California and not bother anyone but if you also want to be able to ride your bike to work there is only a handful of places and it is really devastating for your neighbors.

SO it is hard to look back on those times because of that. The best years of my life while understanding how hard it was for others.

You would agree it was a Tale of 2 cities, best of times..

…Worst of times. Yea, it was. Before my losses there were others like Oona and there is this community that grows up between that loss.

There is a lot of weaving and mending of the social fabric even if we didn’t really know what we were doing at the time. We did what we needed to.

I talk about how the deaths were a reason why I left the city also and how I just needed a break and we are both nodding our heads…

It brought us together and that is hard, I feel that loss (that closeness) and it’s been 20 years. I feel that absence of “us”, like if Raymond called and said I need you.. I’m in the car and driving to Detroit. There was a group of folks around that time that coalesced around these events and I’m sure that is how it was before too.

It’s not uncommon to hear people talk about how it was the worst time but they still keep in touch with others from that time.

The thing that occurs to me is, one of my wife’s cousins' kids just died and we were at the funeral. He was 31, young, and there was almost no one there, just no community. You see that and realize what I had access to. We know people are going to die, everywhere, all of us, and I feel for the kid and his friends to not have that community to latch around to. We were a mess but they are like a hopeless mess.

There is a narrative power that suggests that even if you have to be brave and leave this special place that might allow you to be brave and notice what is different and afterward speak up about trying to stick together, somehow- let’s build community or tell me not to leave or whatever… it’s all that, which inspires me to try and take this project on. And in those moments of struggle with loss to know what is possible and even if flawed and messy or short lived…

Even if it is short lived I think it has real impact.

Somehow we are talking about the Freezer theatre space…and people finding themselves in this space and seemed to not even know who owned it but point was that it was short lived but very significant and impactful as lost youth to find each other and connecting on a more human level which allows them to then see bigger patterns like systemic issues like poverty and racism.

And coming to that themselves organically because they felt more comfortable and safe in that space.

I talk too much about that space and then go into recollections of 404 and Andre who seemed to be a schizophrenic guy who was doing all this “dancing” and shit in front of our band playing and we were like trying to be serious and I am sure I was annoyed but then afterward I think it hit me and it was a step about sharing space and this was his space also. [appreciating our real differences but right to be ourselves and certain people have it a lot harder than others to get there.]

We check in about time, and another beer or not… and Pat says since he doesn’t have clients anymore he is good and would have one more beer. Also pee break.

While we break, think about a significant show, event or fundraiser that stands out..?

I leave the recorder on and get some great restaurant sounds…

For me the best show was I think my going away which was also the fundraiser for Jesse’s and Aren’s defense which you put together with Erik Petersen and Defiance,

Oh, I was thinking of a different one, with Witchhunt..

There were a bunch of really good shows that summer and I think Nana Grizol too and they all made for an awesome summer and those were really really really good.

Yea we had a landing pad for those folks who were sorta adopted by us.

Yea it was like it’s going to be wild and loving but we got you.

Yea, some shit is going to happen… and it was a time Cornerhouse was FUN! And completely out of control. Did you interview Brotini? Everybody had bro names for some reason and we had Sloppy Day Saturdays was happening..

Did you ever go to meetings?

I did. I totally went to meetings and I was on maintenance and didn’t take notes or promise I was sober always but I went. It was a Tale of Two Houses..

And that was not the first time there was that division of difference. Maybe “oh you got the big fancy house and we got the shitty house..?”

When I first moved in I moved into the Big House, there ya go, there’s the shade… that first floor bedroom for a few months or something (that was my room) until Erica moved out of Corner house and I think she and Kit moved to Ohio and I moved into Corner House with just me and Jesse I think for a good while and maybe Brotini, he and I went to high school together and I had not seen him in years, but that’s how I knew him. And then Lou moved in with us for a time.

Jack moved into Corner house for a time when you were there?

Not when I was there.

There was a point when tensions were such that Jack took it upon himself to move over there to try and help bridge the gap.

Yea, cause we were…And then Kara moved in after Dave died and Aren moved in soon afterward and there were like so many dogs in the house too, her big dogs. And left in 4210 was Carolyn, Jack, S&P I think were still there at the time.

Let’s try and go through your roommates.

It’s funny I don’t remember Kit living at Trumbull but they must have been living in the Big House, yea they did and then they left for Ohio around the time I left for D.C. and then we met back up in D.C. I knew Jack from college in A2 and he was my bike mechanic back then so that’s how I knew him. And Lou. Sarah Coffee had moved out by the time I moved in and Megan was there or just moved out. She had that awesome apartment on the 4th floor in Woodbridge where you got to it by going to that back access stairwell.

Oh yea!

It was two very culturally different places. I remember Carolynn organized a women’s night or something in the Big House and I remember like me, Jesse, the Professor and Ray drank whiskey and wore assless chaps or something. It was a tale of two cities and houses.

Leah and Becky?

No.

Steve and Erin were around a lot but they were at Vinewood by then and I went there a couple of times but it was more I think with both of them it was hanging out at the Canteen and Steve working on the garden. That was around the time we were getting that down the street garden back up and then he (and Lou) kept going.

Did you spend much time around Aeden?

Yea when he was little, but he’s like grown now. I saw him at Sherry’s funeral and hadn’t seen him in like 10 years or something and he was super grown.

He’s already gone through his long bunch of tragedies.. I talk about talking to the kids of Trumbull and go through who some of them were he didn't know.

We continue to just go through names like Amas, and talk about how it is to try and reach people without pushing too much. I also talk about talking to Greg who I lived with and our pending interview.

Tarayal?

Clara, Angie and Carmen?

Maybe in the Big House that summer I moved back in but that was peak shit show time in Corner House and that summer I was just renting for 3 months and wasn’t going to meetings.

We talk about finding our loves with the Trumbull connection and the early inhabitants being VERY poly…

I was such a prude and comically. Kit and Erica came out and Kit’s friends from high school were around, probably and D.C. activist people and I didn’t see them much, just a couple of times cause law school was such a shitty time and then I moved into The Rocket Ship with Kit and a bunch of those folks . We are at a party and they invited Kathy over and they were like “alright you two are the only two straight people, so like this is gonna happen and is inevitable so get it over with” and we’ve been married for 5 years now. It was really funny they just decided the serially monogamous straight people not currently booed up were getting together.

How much of it is going to focus on the Canteen and Mick and Sherry and that part of the whole thing?

I try to answer and it get’s personal and considering me interest in sharing my time with them, but I need more than that…

Oh, I remember the question now so can we get back to this? I wanted to ask if you ate together a lot?

We did. Especially early on pretty regularly. I was still getting to know people and Jesse came to some of them I remember. There were also a lot of people who were just really into food at the time and I laughed because it was one of the first times they did a dinner and I showed up with Doritos and a 40 and S&P were horrified. Maybe a packet of ramen too and they were horrified. I did not know how to feed myself so I think they took it as a personal project to teach me how to eat properly and generally I do have a good diet now. Cathy laughs cause I will grow the peppers and make the hot sauce but I will still every now and then rock some doritos and a 40. It’s like I’m either going to make the dumplings or that…

We would also do Sunday Brunch in Corner House too and a lot of that was also to help deal with when there was drama especially when people maybe got trashed and acted like idiots. We could also have brunch the next day to help smooth things out or have a chance to talk. I remember Ray and I making Sunday Brunch pretty often and inviting folks over when it got complicated.

I talked about asking John E. who I was interviewing the next day to get more about the corner house autonomy and still connected to the whole… (ramble ramble)

So that’s the thing is the other place we would see people was at the Canteen so even when it was contentious that was like a safe zone not on anyone’s turf not like fuck you i dont want to go to dinner at the big house cause you guys were mean to us or whatever.

You think Mick and Sherry knew about all that?

I’m sure Mick and Sherry got local gossip or they could hear us screaming cause it was like right there. And they did that for the whole neighborhood too, even like old timers and like Jesse’s dad would show up for example.

That’s a good point and I always relate to the Waters as a family that had a CC connection and would come around still and it was equally important to me to get to know Martha and Bill as getting to know their kids. I was also a little older and a little more curious about all these connections. Alley Culture and Canteen def helped me meet people and get a sense of how this (Trumbull) is all part of a thing and a bigger picture still and shit happens.

I didn’t know them from their home as much as from the Canteen and that space and Sherry a couple times grabbing me in the side lot and telling me I needed to get myself together and clean it up. SO I am not tied to the house like Wade is and Eric is and Jesse. I didn’t go to any of the Solstice gatherings, just Canteen.

I didn't know them as personally in their space but personally in my space when they would come over to Trumbull or Canteen.

I remember they would come over for bonfires or just to see the pool we dug or …

That was my first interaction with Jesse when he came over to see the pool. I don't think he was at my interview. So, I moved in and it was that weekend that the tarp was put into the hole and filled it up and Jesse came over and freaked out. “Do you know how much water this costs” and “this is the most insane thing” and and it’s me and Megan and Bo, probably drunk and he was going nuts and that was the first time we met and he became my best friend and again all that stuff , so whatever all the complications I always latched onto him cause he was protective of me. That first time I was terrified of him. (laughter) He was very unhappy and we probably ran the hose for like 6 hours.

I tell him the story of why there was a big hole and my part in all that and the whole pollinators story and then putting some kids to work later. (And the hole is still there.)

IT was like literally my first night there and it was naked hippies and ridiculous swimming and then Elli jumped in right, so it was immediately filled with dog hair and OMG and then Jesse lost his mind…

Yea he had been at Trumbull awhile already and he should have just left cause he was likely only going to get more and more frustrated at what happened.

And he stayed for many years laters.

There maybe should have been some failsafe like after 4 years you probably should go and after 5 you HAVE TO GO.

A statute of limitations cause after awhile you are going to be nuts. You move in and do all that growing and then you’ve done the growing and at that point you are just helping other people grow (or not) and that is not fulfilling enough.

And you are going to constantly be seeing people reinventing and doing the same stuff that you saw as mistakes from the past and reacting like “what the fuck is wrong with you are you stupid”!

Literal quote for every conversation with Jess…

WE talk about Jesse more, Jason Wade, when Pat asks about what the current crew is doing now and how I ended up talking with these kids and then not…

Pat talks about his job and the generational component and how undergrads live in this world even if they are studying something related but when they are then into a situation that is challenging- how prepared are they with say working with kids in the city when they were at some liberal progressive program and that in the future they will be more aware and prepared of the worlds realities because adults are choosing to have difficult talks with students when before doesn't seem like they were. So it's a generational issue.

Also the idea of someone from the outside coming in to tell them what is and what is likely to not work… just the same as for us.

That is a paraphrase but I think it is an important consideration. (We both may be a little drunk and it’s good we are wrapping up.)

I think in the same ways, like we did, around issues of substance abuse and suicide they will have that space to help them figure that out. In the same way that if someone from the outside had come in in 2008 and looked around and were like WTF are you people doing? All sleeping with each other, there's random animals running around, everybody is intoxicated all of the time, like none of this is healthy and at least for me, true and fair enough, from an outsider's perspective that is understandable.

What we had built in that space was sorta like an us against the world reaction to all that death that allowed us to heal so for those of us who made it out are in a relatively good head space. I think a lot of the kids now doing that work, I hope, it's the same and I'm on the outside looking in and maybe feeling this is not productive or how I would have dealt with it but they sorta need to like go through that regenerative process of making mistakes and tearing shit down..

I just want them to have that space and then they can do that or whatever work they want…

And your question is can you or someone help them protect that space from the outside world because unlike when we were there, there is a real outside world going on. Nobody wanted that space in 2005 right. It is a very different world now where they are building super expensive condos that are so much right in the neighborhood.

I think these kids do get the machine is coming in.

Yea, feeling super underfoot and that heightens everything..

Alrighty buddy..

(I began the recording haphazardly after we had been talking and didn't want to miss any more so never gave guidelines, caveats or explanations on record like I usually do as a formality.)

Greg - There was a lot of times when I was like who the fuck is that person to tell me but at the same time I wasnt looking at it from outside of my own perspective, but what 20 year old is?

For some people they will say it was the best of times and the worst of times I offer..

Oh hell no and I was only there maybe a year and a half. I remember hangin out in 2000, early summer and around that time I think is when I moved in. Actually I remember I bounced in July of 2001, so before Sept 11. I was hanging out for around 2 years and lived there for 1, but I was running in circles with people who lived there or did shows there.

Do you remember the first time going there?

Had to be a show, yea. First time I became aware of Trumbullplex… well it's interesting. It was a childhood friend and not a childhood friend. I don't know if you know I am a Red diaper baby. There were times I got to know folks cause my folks were going to “do stuff” out of state and other folks were going too and the kids would be watched by someone. There was a young lady I got to know growing up like that, she and her sister, but she lived there. I remember it was my first trip to NYC …91? I think I had tried so hard to get my folks to bring me but my father hates New York, different story, but yea we picked her up and she was living at the Trumbullplex at the time.

I think I was brought there for a show cause I was into hip hop, I was into graffiti and got into dj’ing and hip hop was everything-just when I was kid at 6 mile and Chalmers. I was so tired about how flashy it was and everyone talking about Bentleys and you know riches and that was not the hip hop I fell in love with and that was becoming drowned out by that. It was like I got connected with some punks and was enjoying some of the stuff they was introducing me to, and I knew what it was. I had been to a few shows. So, as Hip Hop was more about “making bank and if it dont make dollars it don’t make sense”, I got more into checking out the punk scene or more DIY type stuff. It was hanging out in those circles like at Old Miami and Gold Dollar and Temple sometimes. The Gold Dollar would do jam sessions on Monday nights that were fucking incredible. We would just get up sometime and spit some lyrics or just fuck around with some instruments people had put down. Yea that was fun.

When I was in high school I think my first show playing in Detroit was at the Miami. Did you know Lacey?

Oh hell yea, he lived downtown. Umm. The Hillside Stranglers. Yea we used to open for them, you remember when I was running with Pope, (Hamtramck punk as far as I knew) A.I.D.S. the noise band and Pope was always like “dude your fuckin siq with that shit, get up there” and would be like “no man. We aint playing without you”. So yea i remember opening for Hillside Stranglers a few times.

Then I talk about 404 as a place I went to some (& the Red Door- “the Cass Spot he says, yea i never been there” (pre Avalon)) and Greg reminds me of “REVOLUTION or “Rev BOOKS. The RCP book store. They opened up in one half of it after they closed, he says. I remember pulling a lot of shit out of there. (Not sure what he was talking about).

Holy shit, I had completely forgotten about Rev Books! I always thought what was cool about our scene was we would just hang out with Scott and others in the RCP and do things together and even would joke with one another about different politics. (i got arrested with one of them once, Monte who I think was also ex plex). And in other cities they would make a big deal of those political differences. (... biggest thing was always their allegiance to Bob Avakian, the party leader and all that very cultish feel, anyway, that was back then. Also having spent time around Krishnas, it felt similarly a little icky.

Yea, that was where I first started getting active cause you know my Father was… well those are different stories not for the recorder. I had a history of knowing them folks and it is crazy cause they are not too far apart from each other in a lot of ways and the key difference is the tactic of getting to the end goal and the state dissolves. There is that sense that the state is toppled but how do we protect ourselves etc and that is one of those things and it's healthy to have those differences and understand we are not enemies and we should be having these discussions and grappling with these questions.

And that is one of the ways that we fall into replicating state patterns by “othering” people…,I offer.

And then you pick one of these up (cell phone) and we can get the word out, but it's like we can drown you out with so much disinformation you can't even breath, it's crazy.

(I Talk about cell phones and how much information is generated just here in NY…)

It's easier but also challenging.

So, you were there in 2000 for about a year, and then left for school, were there other reasons?

The honest truth was I felt unheard. And I was struggling through a transition and it seemed to go against the principles it was founded upon (all voices mattering I think is what he is suggesting) so it seemed like time to bounce. I'm not going to go crazy and argue myself til i was blue in the face I'm just gonna go and that’s when the opportunity with Seneetha on the other end of the block came up. She bought that house and was looking to move in eventually and couldn't figure out how to make it happen and I was like I need a place to stay and looking for a place where people aren't going to try and do me dirty with ridiculous rent and so that worked out. Me and Stephanie were going to be roommates upstairs. Woodbridge and that's what made it the historic district, because it was one of the first places in the world where working class families could own a home, by living in one part and rent out the other to help pay the mortgage, so that’s why all those 2 family flats were invented.

[13 minutes into it] and a second beer and this was what I wanted to happen… but was a little scared to talk about also.

I was just happy Greg would talk after our argument, but it had been over 20 years..

Honestly the last interaction I remember was with you. I was a little behind on the rent and I felt bad that I couldn't pay up when I bounced but I was like “dude i got bucked” and I was able to catch up on some other stuff and pay at least more than half of what I owed off of the settlement when we were illegally fired as bike messengers and I was kinda pissed at you.

I'm sure you were.

But from your perspective too and the collective, the stack of repairs that needed to be done… You guys had a lot of weight on your shoulders and that's why I didn't go apeshit. And I was like Jhon you are trying to figure things out but look I’m a mixed kid from the East side of Detroit and I have ideals and what Im bringing to the table I feel is not being heard and you coming at me about what I owe when I am in a fucked up situation. I get that I owe you but I just don't have it. You hurt me in that moment and I was like just let it go.

I would say it also ventured into being racist and I am very sorry.

Really? Look, people don't know a lot of the time until they experience it for themselves and have a hard time believing cause it is outside of their perspective and it took me a while for me to understand that. I never saw you though as a racist individual.

I'm just saying as a white person there was internalized racism and I didn’t actually know your story and made assumptions…

It’s ingrained in America and hard to escape so it's passed down generations and anyway I think we are getting away from the interview even if this is good stuff to be talking about and has to do with it, but I want to make sure we don't get off the rails.

So just to be clear, our argument was just the last straw?

No. I was already out the door. And you were on the repair committee and were trying to make some stuff happen from what I remembered and I remember saying we need to figure out some ways to raise some funds to do it, and I felt like I was getting back “well, maybe we can find some free stuff”. I was trying to save the building and felt like the longer you put it off the more the water was damaging everything. I was going onto construction sites at the time and was learning and a lot of the stuff I learned from my parents having to make their own repairs because like I said they had a land contract and didn't have a mortgage and they were struggling. It was cheaper than rent, but as they learned those repairs were a mother fucker. I grew up learning about home construction early on and I was trying to bring some of that.

[I didn't talk to him about how much I felt the same way about learning to work on houses as a kid and wished we would have just figured out how to work together more back then.]

Hard to hear (in a noisy bar out back) I suggest something about how I wasn't considering all the details or all I should have and explain that it wasn't until I was away from Tplex and in Detroit Summer (thinking back) about how I should have handled that sitch better.

We all have our growth and our arcs.

I had been in collectives and trying to do good work and realized it wasn't all about my ideas but I had more to learn.

It's important to recognize and places like Trumbullplex you can see it; things are bigger than yourself.

More of me trying to explain how I had taken on too much and was so full of my own visions for all the possibilities of the project etc it made me less capable of being as thoughtful a collective member as it takes to resolve conflict in a healthy way.

Listen. I never felt any animosity and I was hurt you came at me in a moment. It took maybe a dayor two to figure out how to move forward for the collective, you know?

I knew that cause you came to Phili and we hung out at Sam’s (who I was seeing) place, when I was involved with organizing a march and counter cultural event ((around 4th of july and maybe a president was going to come through Phili and we had put out this book and were doing a tour etc etc…))

Oh yea, with “The Professor”. Ryan! Yea I remember that, Climbing Poetree did that event, yea they were impressive. I saw a couple of their shows since I moved out here.

Yea, I ended up becoming friends with them for a little while. (that was the first time we met and worked together in Phili, along with Erik Petersen)

Alright, so you had already been participating in political stuff. Did you feel like the theatre or the Trumbull furthered any of that activism?

LIke I said I was a Red diaper baby and I was exploring some…and I grew up knowing a lot of people in the party and I don't want to go off into that, but I was organizing with the Youth Brigade for awhile and actually I came out here in 96’ and was going to stay then, that was my plan, cause I was asked to come and help organize the October 22nd Coalition, you familiar with that? (YES)

I came to New York to help get the National Office up and had no intentions of going back to Detroit, cause I was bored with the city. I was fresh out of high school. I graduated in 95 and did a year at Wayne State and was gettin in a rut. Folks were recognizing that and said there is this newer coalition forming and they need folks to help and thought I might like to do that and I was like “New York, yea please!” “Hip Hop, the Bronx, where it was born, yea.” But I got out here and that's when Q Tip met J Dilla, JD at the time, and it was like everywhere I went, and that’s all I was doing was trying to hit train yards and break circles and just trying to find where everybody was doing that stuff here. When I was starting to get around, cats were like you from Detroit oh shit yo yo. They were always asking questions about Detroit and after a while, 3 months after I got here I started to want to go back home cause everybody was just asking and I had already seen… well, (trails off like it's not something to share). SO, I did go back to Detroit and never stopped organizing with the Coalition and the Brigade, but I was getting frustrated with their sexualized way of thinking, so I was checking out other stuff. SO, you mentioned Scott, “Commie Scott”? [yea] Yea, so he was my first roommate when I moved back to Detroit around the corner from Trumbullplex, when he was on Commonwealth and that was a great time in my life.

SO, you must have been coming over to the theatre (cause it was so close)?

Yea there was a couple of times I went around the corner, but there were some people who were like you know, “what are you doing here?” But me and Scott were used to that.

I talk about how Trumbull was always that way with some people, standoffish or even had a stick up their ass while others, first generation Tplex would hang out at Scott’s and would mess with him over politics for fun. He was a serious activist no doubt and into punk. Mt Tai.

Greg - And I don't get mad at people who are like that honestly, cause no matter where you are at or what ideology, there’s a certain amount o f- when you create a party, a coalition, an organization, there’s going to be a power structure of some sort and it doesn't necessarily mean that you have, um …. A lot of times it’s influence. You have to respect what comes from that and there needs to be checks and balance to that kind of interaction and that’s why I always respected people who … it's not a great analogy but when Barack Obama got elected and Cornell West was like “it's a historic day and I am happy for my brother, but I'm still going to be a thorn in his side.” It's necessary.

Do you remember the meetings as just painful or sometimes were they actually..

They were productive. Listen we were kids trying to make collectivized housing work and that's not easy no matter which way you approach it. Whether it's collectivized over political activities or in a cultural sense, like artists that work together. Homes take work to function you know and buildings require maintenance and owning it puts responsibility on you and you don't want to lose touch with that free spirit that you have, but at the same time to maintain it you have to have periods where you say we have to take care of business and handle this, then get back to doing what we were doing. It's not what everybody wants to be doing, but if you want to maintain that space it requires (a little bit of) work. To me I never shied away from work and where I get irritated is when others try to skirt around and put it on others.

Do you remember being part of any projects that you worked on?

I did leave a couple of things behind. I remember the greenhouse that ended up becoming a chicken coop, I think. We had to sacrifice our electronics/tv smashing area but it was worth it. Oh I fucking loved that, being able to put a bat to a tv, that was great. We would just be adventurous sometimes and be out and about and have a cart or something and just collect trash tvs or whatever. I'm not going to lie, I do like television if it's done well, it doesn't have to be highbrow but if it's well written and a little bit of an arc to the story and the character growth, I love it, you know. A little bit too much sometimes but at the same time life can be frustrating and being too tied to some of that stuff isn't good, so it was like a good release to that frustration too (the destruction of electronics).

Culturally did you end up identifying with punk and DIY? For me I like to think punk is not a sound and more of the means and efforts to create your culture and there is a lot of overlap with say hip hop.

Oh yea. It’s more like the spirit. There’s so many different emotions that build up and to not have an outlet like, and it comes in so many sounds and forms of it and… I think it was a member of Wu Tang in an interview I watched recently and was talking about how the scenes were adjacent, punk and hip hop. I remember these conversations I had back in 96 when I came out here. A lot of punks come from not affluent but middle class background and never really had a lot of wants, extravagant wants yes, while at the other end a lot of cats from hip hip didn't have a lot of things and it's easy to see the culture of it go towards the flashiness is the thing, to try and attain, where as the punks go for the grunginess, well not that but…

Yea that tracks with your point though.

There is still a similarity in the expression. There are relatable pressures in some way. It's different because of the duality of America. I don't want to just say white and black but in a lot of ways that is the duality and the experience of them. Hip hop comes from here (NYC) and punk really grew here in the 80’s. That was why I was able to straddle both worlds and I didnt grow up in a place where it was like I only had a certain type of music-my Dad is mixed as well. His father was from Missouri and his Mother was from here, a Jewish woman. So his Dad exposed him to a lot of Blues clubs out in LA like legends we hear about, but he also was exposed to a lot of other music from the Bay area, like Santana and Sly. My Mom grew up in Long Island and I just had all this music in my home growing up and never had that bottled feeling like some cats who were like, “I only listen to hip hop, nothing else.” And I was like and you are trying to produce music? You're trying to make beats but you don't know music? I hate to say it like that cause it is a little like ridiculing, but at the same time if you want to make music get to know music and you don't have to know it all but start with what moves you, but anyways. I went to a lot of different shows like I saw John Lee Hooker when I was a kid and King Sunny Ade and Bunny Wailer, cause my folks exposed me to a variety of stuff. Los Lobos. I remember my Dad, he was a shutter bug since he was a kid in the projects, using an oatmeal box to make pictures. Me and my friends were running around waiting on a Los Lobos show and I forgot the guy's name but the lead singer of the band was also a shutterbug and my Dad’s there having a conversation with him talking about dark room exposure experiences and shit.

So you grew up with photography, politics and music in your home, so that kinda makes sense to me that you would end up at Trumbullplex cause though it was punk it had so much more going on you know.

Yea, for sure, that's what I loved about the place.

I start talking about how I personally made efforts too and what I got out of knowing Ron Allen etc.

Yea, I got to know him through the coalition and he used to come out and he would use his art, his voice to talk about things he liked, but also what we needed to pay attention to and what he felt needed changing. He was there to contribute in whatever way he could and to me that's what any of us can do is try and raise our voice and contribute to creating a better world. Through ripple effects. A lot of times we don't even notice how these little local acts can just …I mean Trumbullplex is known around the world and it didn't dawn on me until I lived there and was almost out the door, cause it was like people coming through there from all over the place. I had heard of it and had to check it out while I was here.

Did you enjoy that?

I loved being a part of that. You didn't know who was going to come through the door.

I talk about how some people loved that front porch cause you could just hang and somebody was going to walk by.

And you didn't know who it was going to be either. And like I was saying I was getting tired of the way hip hop was becoming and the circles I was in there were people who had…made mistakes you know. I felt betrayed by those mistakes and as I grew older I learned that wasn't exactly the case and we all make mistakes growing up.

That is sorta the ARA crew were you doing stuff with them?

Actually I was doing stuff with the newspaper, I remember it was Tam and Jason the electrician and some Lansing people, that was Active Transformation? Yea I was contributing articles to that. (laughs) I was always good at writing but people were impressed and sorta gassing me up and being a kid that was a good combination. But, I went to some ARA stuff. I was more like October 22nd Coalition. From 96’ when I got back there was work with Arnetta Grable, Dr Gloria House, Ron Scott.

Yea, Ron taught me a lot.

Yea, I loved that dude. I heard he had passed, I wish I could have made it to the funeral. He was an incredible dude and you know, he was one of the early Panthers in Detroit.

I think Ron liked Trumbull really appreciated some of that potential. (I recall the time he took Monica and me to a meeting with just a few old heads, like mostly Pastors, and it was heavy).

Oh yea. And you know you gotta respect that but not fear it either and learn to voice your own opinions and be like “this is where I am coming from”.

Do you remember aside from Seneetha having much relationship to the neighbors?

Oh yea, I mean, Ishmael, when he moved in across the street.

(I am totally blown away! I forgot about Ishmael as one of my neighbors back then, he and his family were cool)

Yea, he was one of my neighbors downtown too. Everyone was all excited and was like “oh they got a kid and they got dreads and…”I was like I gotta go see who everyone is talking about and go across the street and was like "oh shit wassup bitch”, yea. (more talk about that family).

Speaking of kids. Do you remember hangin out with Aeden and Ariel much?

Yea. Not too long ago we were in Detroit around the time Jesse and Eric’s Dad passed, Bill Waters who was always cool with me. I remember we were at the Cass for the repass and we slid through and I saw Aeden. He was a little kid and having not seen him for that long, he was like almost a grown man.

I mention how I would like to interview the kids and do something in the book around the kids.

We begin to talk about the fallout of Marius’ case and the fall out for various folks around Trumbull and he relays he just heard stories and read some but I am not going to relay this conversation regarding all that.

Yea there was a lot of nice folks but Frank was always extra friendly and something about him just always smelled off, so I was just always like ok.

(pause)

We begin to talk about Ali Hussin and his hustling and his heart.

He taught me some hustles, but you know you gotta survive. You don't want to make your money in a way that can get you locked up and especially if you are active, the police are watching. Yea he just wanted to share the wisdom he had accumulated with people who cared to hear. Ali was a beautiful soul.

I talk about how after 22 years in the city I just feel like I had lost so many good people, so much death, and Ali makes me think of that again.

Listen. Detroit is not a place you go to escape loss. There are a lot of incredible things happening still to this day but at the same time there is a lot of heartache too and for various different reasons and it was never something I was able to to escape and part of the reason I left my hometown also. Like I said the first time I left was cause I was in love with NY since I was a kid and the only other place I thought about was Minneapolis cause of Prince and Morris Day and just Minneapolis funk was an incredible sound but then hip hop came along and I dove right in and that was the culture for me at a young age. When I came out here and am hearing stories about back home and they are making ripples in the culture, they aint on wax yet but they are asking me about my hometown so I had to go back but it reminded me again of the way it was. I grew up in a rough and tumble part of Detroit so I had to adjust quickly to dealing with loss unfortunately. Don't get me wrong it is not all doom and gloom but there was a lot of sadness still with that.

Experiences like Trumbullplex can be very freeing cause you know there are so many pressures on you, and not just cause we are paying $200 mo. for a room when some people are paying 6 or 700 dollars a month for an apartment, but we still had a feel of having roommates because of the multi-family aspect of it and the way it was broken up. You asked early too about what was loved about the home and the front porch was beautiful and bumping into the neighbors and seeing the cats from the scene I knew but what I loved was the little crevices and hidden spots. It was almost like…like the back stairs by the kitchen and the almost hidden ways of maneuvering around. Little spots like when you are going around into the theatre there was like a little teeny room before you go in. Me being someone who was doing home construction and learning that at a young age, I would wonder what led this house to having so many crazy little things.

What else do you remember?

The trampoline. That was a lot of fun. Paul's bus and it was just parked there for so long. But he's the one who taught me about biofuel.

And we were taught that by people coming through (I think).

We talk about the FIASCO tour in that bus and I relayed a funny story about worrying a bear was coming when we were stoned; thinning and straining some grease out in the woods.

What was that restaurant some folks worked at? In Season. I remember going out in Steve's mini van and driving back with them wanting to “wash this work day off” and it was like a bowl passing around and the spirit of mutual aid counts for everything. Oh you're driving and want to hit the bowl, oh it's fine I will grab the steering wheel, just work the pedals. That kind of shit you know.

I am so glad I did get to experience some of that and now and getting to remember cause I forgot so much.

The adventures, in the middle of the night. You want to go out and not even necessarily know what the adventure would be. Sometimes it would be a graffiti project and sometimes to be … not for the recorder. I can't remember the code we would have but it was something like is this a whacky or wiley? And the whacky is like fun culture bombing type thing and the wiley is like, oh get the black mask. I didn't get a whole lot of those and preferred the whacky ones myself and you know what … My Dad said it first, the regret of not going to art school. I still have a designer's mind. And that's why I liked the whacky stuff. I remember I did a piece and it's been so long I don't remember but it was almost to the roof on the side of the theatre over looking the garden.

Yea, it might be covered but (doesn't matter) someone made a postcard and that is on it.

I think it was Wade. I think Wade did and there were a few of them. You know who I am talking about, right?

Oh yea, we are good friends and talk a lot.

Yea its been pre pandemic but we have texted and were like it's been too long lets do a dinner again. He's in Bed Sty.

(Talk about the kids and family.)

Love is the fact that I see you for who you are and I accept you regardless and that is hard and I still struggle with unconditional love, but I do and I don’t. Right here and and right now the human being who you are and it takes a while to get there with all the hangups we carry with us along the way, but at the end of the day we are still struggling to see each other for ourselves.

Do you think Trumbull can help facilitate that love? What greater legacy if it could be a place to help people figure out how to love like that.

Places like that are an experiment along the way. And at the end of the day we are all like a bunch of kids in this world trying to deal with the shit we have been handed cause for sure it is a big pile of shit.

I remember Oona, Steph, Jesse, Steve, yourself, me, and the woman from Vinewood who worked at Freedom House (Sarah) we tried to create community gardens and it wasn't just the cultural events that get put on because we should all know how to produce our own food and be free of the chemicals that get put in the stuff we buy. And it's good to know where your food comes from and even if you don't produce your own food or all that you eat to understand and appreciate that, that comes from love. One of the things I think I learned from growing up in the RCP was seeing the arc of what they've learned over my life time and the struggles they went through, without getting too lost in that, but it doesn't mean shit to strive for change and revolution in society if it doesn't come from a place of love for the people. If it doesn't come from the disgust of seeing people live outside in shelters and go hungry and the basic necessities in life not being met, that should be the driving force for wanting that change and again that comes from love and you can not love people if you don't accept them for who they are.

I say that because as a young teenager starting to be exposed to political struggle, the party was grappling with homophobia, and watching that but also seeing them say "we were wrong” that is not the way and that takes a lot.

I interject to make sure he knows that all he is saying is great and it doesnt need to just stick to Trumbullplex.

At the end of the day, see there was a friend who got a tattoo on her arm if I remember correctly if says “REVOLUTION and “love” is in the word and all the letters were backward except for love which to me said if love is not at the heart of it what's the point. Otherwise you are just struggling to become the next one in charge and control of society.

And if you are actually working toward revolution and get there and have power it only gets harder, you would have to deal with the contradictions and grapple with the resources available to meet everyone's needs and changing culture and in a lot of ways I understand why my Father is a Maoist and what he strived to do in China and a lot of the things that were taught outside of the country is not exactly what happened. Mistakes were made but shying away from the history of the mistakes doesnt help like with the students that was Dung Xio Ping who moved his forces in on them, but that's another story, and the point is if you get into the heart of struggling for power in society you are going to start to dealing with a lot of different forces working against you.

Do you think Tplex has a relevance in this current political moment?

Fuck yea, and nothing should be downplayed and the contributions from what I call these types of experiments that are learned are important because life is an experiment.

I would say calling Tplex an incubator or that it was an access point for people to experiment with, say, sexuality or living collectively, or trying on some of the stuff they have been reading about, like calling themselves an anarchist…

That might have been the biggest lesson Trumbullplex gave to me, exposing me to the wide variety of sexuality and gender identity and what being a liberated lover in this world truly means. Part of it is not being afraid to experiment and try these things for yourself before making some sort of judgement. I think it gets into the psychology of America and its warped twisted view of sexuality in America and whats “normal” and whats not, especially in the 90’s was really fucked up. I had some hang ups and fear of acceptance in what was a dangerous environment (his neighborhood) and in some ways I thought that was survival related but then as I grew older I learned. My Moms brother was gay so early on I also considered whether I would talk to my Uncle or treat someone I cared about like what was seeing happening in the world. Then that was only gay, bi, lesbian and that was a very narrow view of sexuality and gender identity. In Trumbull, before it even became a national topic that was discussed, I was exposed to not the idea of being trans but people who were and were my housemates. And I am so grateful for that experience and seeing them as human beings, who they were regardless of however a person identifies and even if it seems weird to you and you are uncomfortable that is your problem to deal with and you need to still see them for the human being they are. I am always grateful for that experience.

Also that wasn’t the first time I lived in the neighborhood, like I told you (Scott’s on Commonwealth), and people were like it used to be fucked up over here, and I was like so was where I grew up, but it was these traditionally white suburban kids, punks or anarchists living practically downtown in the city, throwing off and rejecting what it means to be a white American basically. And a lot of people in the neighborhood didn't understand it for that and just kinda saw us as the weird kids over there but having grown up in the city and coming from a mixed background I've always kinda had...I don't want to call it diplomatic, but it doesn’t fit…even to this day people will ask me questions to get another perspective, from both sides and like I said earlier I don't want to over simplify it as White and Black america but you can not escape that ingrained duality. I tried to kind of be a bridge and it's not just being weird and yes maybe we are weird in your eyes but that's because we gave up on that idea of “being normal” or if you want to consider that normal is good for you fine, great, but we are going to do our thing.

“I wish we were more intentional or had the language back then to talk to folks about don't we just all want to belong and be supported for also just being you…”

Interview is abruptly stopped when Greg notices it getting dark and we look at the radar and there is a “Take shelter” storm warning and both decide quickly it's the time to make moves.